Re: 90 amps for electric car charge!

Well, SOMEBODY'S got to take the money.

On 2/17/2010 4:14 AM HeyBub spake thus:

Right; the most important reason is enriching the investors and owners
of the companies building the goddamned things.

Can you say "Bechtel"? or "Combustion Engineering"?

Reducing Carbon emissions is the LEAST important reason for implementing
nuclear power.

Well I guess we'll soon find out how long it takes to build one based
on this breaking news:

"President Obama traveled to Lanham, Md., today, to the headquarters
of the IBEW Local 26, to announce that his administration plans to
offer $8 billion in loan guarantees to build a new nuclear power
facility. And more loan guarantees for clean energy are on the way.

In his remarks, Obama addressed safety and environmental concerns
about nuclear energy:

Now, I know it has long been assumed that those who champion the
environment are opposed to nuclear power. But the fact is, even though
we have not broken ground on a new nuclear plant in nearly thirty
years, nuclear energy remains our largest source of fuel that produces
no carbon emissions. To meet our growing energy needs and prevent the
worst consequences of climate change, we'll need to increase our
supply of nuclear power. It's that simple. This one plant, for
example, will cut carbon pollution by 16 million tons each year when
compared to a similar coal plant. That's like taking 3.5 million cars
off the road.
"On an issue which affects our economy, our security, and the future
of our planet, we cannot continue to be mired in the same old debates
between left and right; between environmentalists and entrepreneurs,"
he said. "

I'm actually quite surprised that he's finally backing up his prior
statements about new nukes with some positive action.    The real test
will come when we see if there is any action to stop endless court and
political challenges from the usual environmental extremists.

Not quickly. Takes about ten years to build one - or longer, depending on
the litigation.

I agree nukes would be a quickly available source of new energy.

But, by solution I mean something that the USA is ready to actually
implement now.    Many of the same folks who cheer on the electric car
as some kind of miracle solution also will not let new nukes be built.
That gets back to what I said about needing to address the whole
equation, from electric car to where the power is coming from and why
you never see that discussed in the media.   Only hype about the
clean, green electric car.

That solution's already here: nuclear.

Your math is incorrect.   Charging at 90amps, 240V for 4 hours is
86Kwh of electricity.   At 10c a KWH that would be $8.60.   Here in
NJ, at about 17c, it would be $15.

Also, the compare can't be made to a internal combustion engine car
getting 20MPG.   The electric cars are very small cars.  So, it should
be compared to cars getting 35-40 MPG.   You can get a bluetec
Mercedes diesel in that range that is a real car.   There are plenty
of other small cars capable of that mpg too,     So assuming 35mpg, I
could drive at least 175 miles in a simlar car for the same $15 in
energy cost.   And those electric energy costs are largely derived
from cheap coal from existing plants which are not particularly
clean.  If we're to build anything remotely clean, ( think carbon
sequestration) you can expect the future energy prices to be way
higher.   Unless we come up for a solution on how to make the
electricity, you can't begin to compare costs moving forward.

On Feb 15, 12:16 pm, trad...@optonline.net wrote:

========================================================================================

Noticing that in the USA and also the UK the discussion about electric
vehicles so often mentions the production of electrcity by burning
natural gas, oil, or god forbid, coal definitely being the most
polluting, as witnessed by the UK getting rid of much of it's coal
burning by the 1960s, after several hundred years of industrial
production based on coal.

Only recently, heard once again, that old Yorkshire (England)
expression which use the slang word "brass" for money! Which says
"Where there's muck (industrial dirt, smoke, smog etc.)  there's brass
(money)"!

But there are many parts of the world that use hydro generated and or
more locally generated electrcity from wind power, solar etc. There
are for example some individual homes, in one part of Germany (that
country being presumably not as sunny as say the southern USA?) that
produce more electrcity from solar etc. than they consume. And by law,
there, it can be sold back into the public electric system. This does
mean, by the way, that there will not be times, when the roast is in
oven and the clothes dryer and/or clothes washer are operating they
will 'draw electricity from the grid'. But on an overall net basis
they put more energy from their built features such as solar cells,
back into the system,  than they draw!

In this particular part of Canada we use about 95%, soon to be 100%,
electrcity generated by hydro. Which then gets into discussion about
whether hydro generation IS truly 'green', or not!

But trying to knock down the electric car argument by always
'assuming' that generating electricity involves some sort of 'muck' is
incorrect. Electrcity from hydro generation in north eastern Canada,
e.g. 'Churchill Falls', the planned 'Lower Churchill River Project' in
Newfoundland - Labrador, 'James Bay' in northern Quebec etc. already
powers New York via connecting high voltage transmission lines.
Certain types of transmission line can also be run under the sea.

However having said that; the OP seems to be a link to some very
expensive plugs and cords?

Looking at the third example in the link, $600 for what appears to be
a plug, a special socket and a length of possibly 10 AWG flex seems
very expensive!!!!!!! The plug in the $600 kit for, example, looks
identical to the 30/50 amp plug on the 230 volt 4800 watt garage
heater that we bought recently, complete with plug and cord for less
than $70, including sales tax! And which we plug into the 230 volt
welder outlet in our garage to provide auxiliary heat in cold weather
while working on a vehicle. Even to 'make up' that plug/wire/socket
combination, even allowing that the special plug into the vehicle
might cost say $30, could probably be done for around $60 or less?

Some of the preliminary calculations seem to indicate that even in
this cold climate, where batteries do not function as well as in
warmer climes, an electric vehicle, for the mileage and distances that
this retiree drives could be highly practical!
And here where gasoline, for example, now costs, more than a dollar
litre (Roughly 3.8 litres to a US gallon) so we are talking at least
$4 per gallon, for regular; and where a 20 mile per gallon vehicle
costs say 20 cents per mile, for gasoline alone, the electric
equivalent, seeing that our domestic electricity cost is around 10
cents per kilowatt hour it could cost us 80 cents to one dollar to
completely recharge an electric car battery? That battery then giving
a range of say 60 miles for a cost of a couple of cents per mile. But
that seems, together with other savings too good to be true; and
probably is, whether one installs a suitable outlet in the garage or
not?

Contrary opinions welcomed.

Yeah, what you have to plug it into is one of the key facts the green
folks promoting electric cars as a big solution fail to mention.
Aside from the installation cost of an appropriate circuit, it's not
exactly that awful either.   True, it takes a 90A circuit to fully
charge the car in 4 hours.   But if you look at the table there are
other very viable options:

90A    4 hours
60A    5 hours
40A    7.5
30A    10

That gets you to fully charged with a range I guess of about 225
miles.  If you use the car mainly as a second car for short drives
around town, driving to a commuter lot, etc., it sounds viable.

The second big omission is that you always hear the media gushing over
this cars as "zero emissions".    Which is true only if you
conveniently ignore that all this power still has to be generated
someplace.  In some small amount of cases today, it could be green, eg
where the car is charged at night using excess hydroelectric.   But
for most of the country, the power today still has to come from
conventional fuels and all you're doing is moving the pollution from
one place to another.   And possible introducing more, as I'm not sure
what the total energy/emissions balance looks like, ie burning a
gallon of gasoline in a car vs burning say coal to generate the
electricity, then sending it over a transmission system with losses,
etc.

Is your garage electric car ready?

Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt
outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid
vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by
either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging
rate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/business/15electric.html