 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsGeneralRural LivingHome AutomationSecurity AlarmsConstructionRepairPlumbingCleaningPest ControlLawn and Garden |
Homeowner Forum / Rural Living / July 2008how to figure break even?
i figure heating oil in New England will pass $5/gallon this winter. assuming we have similar weather to last winter, that would put my winter heating bill at $10,000. i have quotes for insulating my house, which currently only has a 6" cap of that stuff that looks like vermiculite (post & beam, no wall insulation at all), of $10,067. it seems to me that the payback on the insulation will be pretty short, but what's the formula for figuring it? lee  SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. > i figure heating oil in New England will pass $5/gallon this winter. > assuming we have similar weather to last winter, that would put my winter [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it seems to me that the payback on the insulation will be > pretty short, but what's the formula for figuring it? lee http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/my topic=11360 http://tinyurl.com/y3vefw >i figure heating oil in New England will pass $5/gallon this > winter. assuming we have similar weather to last winter, that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it seems to me that the payback on the insulation will be > pretty short, but what's the formula for figuring it? You'd need to know how much less oil you would use as a result of the insulation being installed and I'd doubt whether you could know that unitl it's installed and you've been through a whole season. I'm sure you'll be told by the people wanting to sell it to you that you'll achieve 'x' improvement, but I'd not believe it. Once you have the comparitive figures of usage of oil against cost of insulation installation, you could work out the time to amortise it, till then..... "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in news:487ff93a$0$29834$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net .au: >>i figure heating oil in New England will pass $5/gallon >>this [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > insulation installation, you could work out the time to > amortise it, till then..... actually, no. one of the reasons i'm inclined to accept this bid is because he makes no claims of dramatic savings through his product, *and*, more importantly to me at least, he has a working knowledge of the period construction of my house; he *knows* where there are likely to be diagonal crossbracings of the post & beam frame. every other contractor was telling me how they apply insulation assuming balloon framing (post 1890s)... which would leave huge uninsulated gaps in a post & beam (ca.1815). it gives me conniptions when realtors don't know architectural styles/periods, but if a contractor in New England can't differentiate between post & beam buildings & balloon construction, they really have no business contracting. they need entirely different approaches for almost everything. lee <was stunned to see a mobile home listed as a 'Federal' house. it is NOT. it's a trailer!> SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. >"FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in >news:487ff93a$0$29834$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net >.au: > actually, no. one of the reasons i'm inclined to accept this >bid is because he makes no claims of dramatic savings through >his product, *and*, more importantly to me at least, he has a >working knowledge of the period construction of my house; he >*knows* where there are likely to be diagonal crossbracings of >the post & beam frame. I hate to say this but it might be cheaper to do a "hillbilly remodel". That is, have a fire and use the insurance to build new. Yaaaa, I know, you like the place... The problem I see is that even after the insulation installation, you're still going to have a drafty old house that is almost impossible to seal up. I've been working with a friend on a similar situation. His house is turn of the century. He had the foamed-in-place wall insulation installed by a guy who knew what he was doing. I borrowed a thermal imaging camera to make sure. This foam was supposed to seal the gaps between the walls and floors and it probably did, judging by how much foam is visible in the basement. Still the house has cold drafty floors. A look with a thermal imaging camera shows cold air coming in everywhere - around the windows despite caulking. through the tiny cracks in the hardwood flooring, despite floor insulation. Around pipe and wire wall penetrations. Finding and sealing all of these would be a career. The solution we settled on was to quit chasing every leak and instead overwhelm them with heat. We installed a free-standing wood boiler and under-the-floor hydronic radiant heat. Now the system simply overwhelms the inleakage. His is a very small house so it doesn't take that much wood to accomplish the deed. Firewood is free for the hauling from construction sites so he has a huge surplus of that. The main point of this post (other than to commiserate with you about the amount of work and cost involved) is to suggest that you rent/borrow/hire a thermal imaging camera, perhaps before but certainly after the insulation is installed. Connect the output of the camera to a video recorder so that you can review it later. This video will be invaluable in tracking down the air leaks that will remain. There are consultants that do these surveys and they usually have a "fan wall" that is installed over a door with enough air handling capacity to reduce the pressure in the house substantially. That really makes infiltration routes stand out in the imager. You can do the same thing with a variety of improvised fans. Or even a big fire in the fireplace in the winter. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Hell is truth seen too late. -Hobbs >>"FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in >>news:487ff93a$0$29834$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > of > the century. He had insulation problems with an eight year old house? >>>"FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in >>>news:487ff93a$0$29834$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > He had insulation problems with an eight year old house? heh. you're right, he didn't specify *which* century... the thing is, in my old house, i don't particularly want to make it completely tight. i want less heat loss, but i don't want the issues of a too-tight house either. currently, the only noticably drafty area is the to-be-rebuilt front entry & one particular outlet in the dining room. the previous owner did a very good job caulking the sills & around windows. i do annual caulking checks in the fall to make sure everything is still intact. (BTW, never use that canned expanding foam, Great Stuff, around chickens. they think it's some kind of treat) lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. "enigma" <enigma@evil.net> wrote in message > "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in >>>i figure heating oil in New England will pass $5/gallon [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > bid is because he makes no claims of dramatic savings through > his product, Well at least that is positive but it still doesn't help you to figure out the amortisation of the costs though. > i figure heating oil in New England will pass $5/gallon this > winter. assuming we have similar weather to last winter, that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pretty short, but what's the formula for figuring it? > lee If that quote includes duct, wall and subfloor insulation, it's a pretty good quote. If it's just attic insulation, it's way high. If possible, use the cellulose blow-in insulation in the attic. It will seal air leaks as well as insulate. On the down side, you have to build sheet metal dams to hold it away from chimneys and recessed light cans. Don't let them block attic vents. You can do blow-in insulation yourself. If you buy the insulation from most lumber yards, they will loan you the blower to install it. It takes two people, one to feed the hopper on the blower and the other to run the hose. If they are going to foam the stud spaces, the skill of the installer is critical. It's easy to leave voids when you are foaming something you can't see. They drill a hole at the top of the stud space and insert a hose all the way to the bottom. Then they withdraw the hose as they inject the foam. If the hose hangs up on wires or plumbing on the way down, you end up with a big cold spot in the wall. I have torn apart foamed walls, and have seen everything from really great installations to a waste of time and money. I don't know what your windows are like, but old windows are normally horribly inefficient. They used to think stagnant air caused disease, and intentionally built houses to be drafty. Air leaks steal energy. A case of caulk can save a lot of money. If possible, have someone set up a blower door and test the house for air leaks. You will be astonished. You can save a lot of money by blocking off windows at night. You can cut rigid foam insulation board to fit the openings of windows and slide the foam into the window opening after dark. Gift wrap the foam in heavy aluminum cooking foil to protect the edges, and screw handles to it to make it more convenient. The foam won't hold screws, so you will need wood on both sides of the foam. I hope you have an efficient furnace. If not, I think you can install a modern flame retention burner with a smaller orifice. Heat exchangers work more efficiently at lower temperatures. The most efficient furnace is one that runs continuously during the coldest weather. With the added insulation, you should be able to downsize your furnace burner BTUs quite a bit, even if your furnace is new. If it is older, a new, smaller burner will gain some furnace efficiency even without installing a new one. If possible, seal all the duct joints before insulating them. Duct leaks in unheated spaces are another big source of heat loss. Do you have a target fuel consumption? It sounds like you normally burn about 2,000 gallons, which I agree is excessive. What are you shooting for? 800 gallons a year? SignatureFor email, replace firstnamelastinitial with my first name and last initial. > If that quote includes duct, wall and subfloor insulation, > it's a pretty good quote. If it's just attic insulation, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dams to hold it away from chimneys and recessed light cans. > Don't let them block attic vents. it's for duct, wall & subfloor insulation. no attic. might do the attic next year, but we're getting a new roof Monday, with soffits & ridge vent. it currently has no venting at all. > You can do blow-in insulation yourself. If you buy the > insulation from most lumber yards, they will loan you the > blower to install it. It takes two people, one to feed the > hopper on the blower and the other to run the hose. i would hire someone to insulate the attic. it's really a scuttle. the house has a low pitch hipped roof, & reaching the outer edges is a real PITA. it's also really hot up there... > If they are going to foam the stud spaces, the skill of the > installer is critical. It's easy to leave voids when you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > torn apart foamed walls, and have seen everything from > really great installations to a waste of time and money. no studs. it's post & beam. even more fun. there are diagonal braces & also random crossbraces, besides the beams between the floors. > I don't know what your windows are like, but old windows > are normally horribly inefficient. They used to think [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > blower door and test the house for air leaks. You will be > astonished. already replaced 32 windows. the front entry leaks like a sieve, but i'm having that rebuilt (it's architecturally significant, and it'd actually cost me more to get a custom door, which wouldn't match the house, to fit the space) > I hope you have an efficient furnace. If not, I think you > can install a modern flame retention burner with a smaller [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it is older, a new, smaller burner will gain some furnace > efficiency even without installing a new one. i replaced a 40+ year old furnace after the first winter here. that cut my oil bill in half! > Do you have a target fuel consumption? It sounds like you > normally burn about 2,000 gallons, which I agree is > excessive. What are you shooting for? 800 gallons a year? somewhere around there, yes. the house is close to 3000 sq.ft., but it's rather inefficient. i'm working on it ;) lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. >> Do you have a target fuel consumption? It sounds like you >> normally burn about 2,000 gallons, which I agree is >> excessive. What are you shooting for? 800 gallons a year? > >somewhere around there, yes. the house is close to 3000 >sq.ft., but it's rather inefficient. i'm working on it ;) Have you considered unvented propane radiant heaters for spot-heating the area you're occupying at the moment? I'm talking about the ceramic surface burner type and not the 'blue flame' type. I've used that technique for literally decades. The savings are dramatic. I can be comfortable in a 55 deg room in short sleeves if the radiant heat from a 15kBTU heater is shining on me from across the room. The added humidity from combustion is most welcome too. I've traditionally fired mine from 100 lb portable tanks. A tank will last around 2 weeks. I'm not recommending portable tanks per se, just illustrating how economical these heaters are to operate. I couldn't hurt to try. The heater is typically under $200. You have a lot of financial room in which to maneuver. Thinking about a $10,000 heating bill makes me have palpations. Heck, even a $500 heating bill gives me heart burn. I got lazy last year and bought my firewood instead of cutting it myself. $250 for the dump truck load. I burned about half of it. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN What do you call 10 blondes standing in a row? Air line. > Have you considered unvented propane radiant heaters for > spot-heating the area you're occupying at the moment? I'm > talking about the ceramic surface burner type and not the > 'blue flame' type. i bought one of those for the sick llama last winter. it's tiny, but it could cook us out of an uninsulated 3 sided shed (8' x 16') with tarps on the open side when it was below freezing outside. > I couldn't hurt to try. The heater is typically under > $200. You have a lot of financial room in which to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > instead of cutting it myself. $250 for the dump truck load. > I burned about half of it. firewood is free here (woodlot), which is good because it's really expensive to buy. i think a cord is going for $350, cut & split (and IME not very well seasoned). i want to replace the stupid fireplace (the one with the right angle bends in the chimney) with a woodstove... it's just getting rid of the massive fieldstone blob. hmm. 8 year old boy. sledge hammer. there's possibilities there ;) lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. -snip- >it's for duct, wall & subfloor insulation. no attic. might do >the attic next year, but we're getting a new roof Monday, with >soffits & ridge vent. it currently has no venting at all. It's not too hot in October. DIY cellulose is probably a 2 yr payback. [just a guess- haven't priced it in a decade or so] Not to mention the difference in comfort of the home. Do the basement too to minimize the chimney effect. [aka stack effect] Your contractor has probably got all the dimensions, that's half the work on doing a heat loss study. Chances are he can plug in the expected R values and give you a pretty good guess at BTU loss for your area. Jim > -snip- >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 2 yr payback. [just a guess- haven't priced it in a decade > or so] yeah, it is. i've been up there pulling wire in October, & February. it's still stuffy & hot. not as hot as mid-summer, but still not at all pleasant. there's no headroom except at the roof ridge & even there i can't sit up straight. > Not to mention the difference in comfort of the home. Do > the basement too to minimize the chimney effect. [aka stack > effect] stack effect is a balloon construction issue. there aren't any areas in post & beam that reach from bottom to top of the house > Your contractor has probably got all the dimensions, that's > half the work on doing a heat loss study. Chances are he > can plug in the expected R values and give you a pretty > good guess at BTU loss for your area. true. i'll ask him. lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. >> -snip- >>> >>> it's for duct, wall & subfloor insulation. no attic. might >>> do the attic next year, but we're getting a new roof >>> Monday, with soffits & ridge vent. it currently has no >>> venting at all. Are you replacing the whole roof, deck and shingles, or just the shingles? If you're opening the roof entirely, that is *the time* to insulate the attic. Do soffits first, then blow in the insulation. With a closed hip roof, it's dang hard to do a decent job- too many low spots. With it open, it's easy to shield the soffits and such, PLUS, you can inspect it. Won't be hot with the roof open. > Are you replacing the whole roof, deck and shingles, or > just the shingles? If you're opening the roof entirely, that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > open, it's easy to shield the soffits and such, PLUS, you > can inspect it. Won't be hot with the roof open. That's what I did back in 1995. The old shake roof was leaking when we bought the place, which was no great surprise with a 4/12 pitch. I tore off the shakes and insulated from above. There was a 2x12 purlin about 6' in from the perimeter, and the original insulator hadn't managed to get any insulation behind the purlin. Doing the attic made a huge difference. Also, there was an uninsulated return air duct running the length of the house in the attic, so I sealed and insulated that at the same time. SignatureFor email, replace firstnamelastinitial with my first name and last initial. -snip- >> Not to mention the difference in comfort of the home. Do >> the basement too to minimize the chimney effect. [aka stack [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >areas in post & beam that reach from bottom to top of the >house All of the infiltration around your sill, through your walls, and windows and doors- will allow the heated air to rise and want to go through your ceilings. Every house is somewhat affected- and the less insulation you have in the attic, the greater the effect. >> Your contractor has probably got all the dimensions, that's >> half the work on doing a heat loss study. Chances are he >> can plug in the expected R values and give you a pretty >> good guess at BTU loss for your area. > >true. i'll ask him. Did he comment on the attic- or does he just assume you are going to do that? Sounds like a guy you trust- ask him what he thinks. I did a lot of detailed heat studies in the 70s including variable insulation schemes. Just off the top of my [somewhat addled] head I have to think that another foot of cellulose in your attic will be the fastest payback- unless there is sunshine coming through the walls. [but then I can't see it from here, and if your contractor has been around the block and thinks you're doing all right leaving the attic- he's probably right] At any rate- good luck and maybe you'll find a natural gas well on the property.<g> Jim > You can do blow-in insulation yourself. �If you buy the insulation from > most lumber yards, they will loan you the blower to install it. �It > takes two people, one to feed the hopper on the blower and the other > to run the hose. � I had my attic insulated over my old fiber glass batts with that blow- in shredded fire retardant paper a month ago; 1700 sq ft/$600 installed... can do it yourself with a helper but I definitely don't recommend a DIY, messy/dusty is a gross understatement.. and you won't save all that much, the bales are cheap, like less than $10 at Lowes/ Home Depot (they used 40 bales), but the labor is hard, and then you need to haul the bales and blower yourself and then return the blower... those guys made four round trips with a full size pick up. You'll need some bright drop lights too. When the cost of fuel. etc. is calcualted they didn't make that much profit. Two other companys I found in the yellow pages quoted me more than $3,000 for exactly the same job...check carefully, lots if rip off artists doing insulation. I was about to give up and then thought to call a local builder a realtor friend recommended, he gave me the name of a guy who does his insulating jobs. The guy was here the same day, measured and gave me the $600 quote right there, I told him do it. The other guys all had to go home and figure things out and mail me a "proposal".... that's like the plumber who can't give a price right there for swapping a terilt bowl... had that happen. It's been a month now, it's hot as hell this last few weeks and I have central air, I can tell already I will have a decent savings on that. I suspect I should save about 20 percent on my heating bill this coming winter, least that's the percentage insulation guy said. The rest of my house is well insulated and has double and triple glaze. But regardless, the attic is a good place to start, heat rises so that's where there's the greatest heat loss... that blow in stuff is cheap and requires no alterations. Sheldon <PENMART01@aol.com> wrote in news:d1674517-0c51-4721-9690-ddb743cb02eb@34g2000hsf.googlegro ups.com: > The rest of my house is well insulated and has double and > triple glaze. But regardless, the attic is a good place to > start, heat rises so that's where there's the greatest heat > loss... that blow in stuff is cheap and requires no > alterations. the attic is the only place that currently has any insulation, & it's 6-8" thick. all my windows, except the basement windows, are triple pane gas filled. the unfortunate thing about them is missing the heat gain i got from the old single panes with storm windows in winter. OTOH, they really do help keep it cooler in the summer, even without air conditioning. i still hate them, but it's too late to go back. lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. > > The rest of my house is well insulated and has double and > > triple glaze. �But regardless, the attic is a good place to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > �the attic is the only place that currently has any > insulation, & it's 6-8" thick. If that's old fiberglass batts it's not nearly enough, in fact the way it was explaned to me those batts do practically nothing because there are too many voids. The blown in stuff fills in all the voids and more than triples the R value, and all for very little cost. My only complaint is that once it's blown in you better never think of using that attic space for anything. The guy that did mine built it up more than a foot higher than the beams, I didn't look until he was done, I was shocked at how thick it turned out.... it's even piled well over the A/C ducts, so those are all insulated too. The first thing I noticed is I no longer get that huge heat inversion in the evening once the sun goes down and the outside temperature cools, before all the heat in the attic pushed down into the house. > �all my windows, except the basement windows, are triple pane > gas filled. the unfortunate thing about them is missing the > heat gain i got from the old single panes with storm windows > in winter. OTOH, they really do help keep it cooler in the > summer, even without air conditioning. i still hate them, but > it's too late to go back. You really don't gain all that much heat in winter from sun streaming in... in summer is when you get a goodly heat gain, when days are longer and sun hits more directly, just when you don't want it. I use shades, I don't want a lot of sun streaming in, it fades all the carpeting and furniture fabrics. Older houses were constructed very poorly regarding insulation, if you have none in the walls I strongly suggest you hunt diligently until you find someone who will do the job at a reasonable price, heating fuel is just too expensive these days not to. Right now is the best time, no one is thinking insulation in the middle of summer and those guys can use the work. If you can find someone who usually does work for builders they will charge much less simply because they already have the paid for materials that are left over from previous jobs they did for builders... I'm almost certain that's why my job cost so much less than the other prices I was quoted. And he did a really fantastic job, anyone could tell he did this many times before... he brought all the bales on two trips on two separate days and piled them in my garage, later it made sense that he didn't just buy them. When he arrived to do the job is when he brought the blower, again it later made sense that even though it was marked Lowes he probably glommed it... he was in and out in six hours. And while he was there early on I got him to loosen his tongue as I'm wont to do and that's when he told me about how a construction guy he knew kept building materials in old truck bodies hidden in the woods on his property. He likely did the same. The message <48eaca98-3e72-46d7-bb3f-ad4bf8ffc2d6@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> from Sheldon <PENMART01@aol.com> contains these words: > You really don't gain all that much heat in winter from sun streaming > in... in summer is when you get a goodly heat gain, when days are > longer and sun hits more directly, just when you don't want it. That depends on the house location. aspect and design. Ours was designed for very effective winter solar gain and summer shade. We live at 56 N . The deep roof overhang and south facing windows are designed so that the low winter sun hits directly much of the day; and in summer, when it's higher, the overhang shades the windows after about 10 am. The entrance, through a portico , is to a central room with one wall entirely of glass. The external portico walls, shield the glass wall from wind-cooling. In winter, sun shines full on the glass wall creating a natural solar heat pump to warm the entire house. In summer, sun never reaches the glass wall. Although the house was not insulated when it was built (1960) the cavity walls (twin walls of brick with a 3" air gap) and 8" rafters made retrospective insulation easy to fit. We replaced all the original windows (singlepane) with low-E double-glazed. With absolutely no heating at all, the interior winter temperature never drops below 55 F night or day. On a sunny winter day, it's 65 F, without heating. Janet. > The message > <48eaca98-3e72-46d7-bb3f-ad4bf8ffc2d6@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That depends on the house location. aspect and design. Ours was > designed for very effective winter solar gain and summer shade. Janet, you keep forgetting that Sheldon is a blithering idiot. Here in the USA (and Canada) we have an International Building Code. In that code, there are several prescriptive paths for glazing. One path is for passive solar heat, and one path is for solar tempered heating. During our remodel, I added a lot of glazing on the south side of the house, and substantial thermal mass in the form of tile floors on cement backer board with R-25 subfloor insulation. Our daily routine is to throw some small pieces on the coals to boost the wood stove heat when we get up at 6 AM. By the time the fire dies down, the sun is up and heating the tile floors. The house stays warm until about 6 PM on solar, when we light the fire again. The stove holds a fire all night, and a massive brick hearth releases heat to supplement the coals before dawn. We have central heat, which we only use for backup. We keep it set at 60 degrees F. (16 degrees C.) for those times we are late getting home. Obviously, on heavily overcast days we have to supplement the windows during the day, but even in our marine and notoriously wet climate we get a huge amount of heat from the sun. I love the light. The house is bright and sparkly all day long. We like to decorate with stained glass and other glass artifacts. When we bought the house there was a bathroom in the center of the house that was a depressing, dark hole. During the re-roof I installed a skylight that turned it into a conservatory. We have a Hoya vining around the light well that blooms 8 months out of the year. The strong floral scent from the blossoms acts as a natural air freshener. The skylight keeps the bathroom warm all day long in the winter, but over-heats during the summer, so I made a glazed frame that fits over it in the summer, and used automotive car tint to reduce the solar gain. In the autumn, I just take the frame off and store it until spring. We also had a dark central hallway, so I installed a solar tube. I suffer from SAD, and tend to extreme melancholy during the dark days of winter. The light is very therapeutic. The house keeps me healthy as well as heating itself. SignatureFor email, replace firstnamelastinitial with my first name and last initial. "Larry Caldwell" <firstnamelastinitial@peaksky.com> wrote in message > Janet, you keep forgetting that Sheldon is a blithering idiot. Here in > the USA (and Canada) we have an International Building Code. In that [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > winter. The light is very therapeutic. The house keeps me healthy as > well as heating itself. Sounds gorgeous Larry. Wanna sell? In article <48844404$0$20537$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader- 01.iinet.net.au>, ask@itshall (FarmI) says... > Sounds gorgeous Larry. Wanna sell? Eventually. I may someday be forced to move into town by poor health or advancing old age, but they're going to have to haul me out of here on a gurney. I spent several hours yesterday cutting up downed wood and stacking it for hauling. I took a break about 4, then went back out and worked until 8:30. I feel pretty good this morning. There's nothing like a little exercise to help you sleep. Now if the arthritis would just back off... SignatureFor email, replace firstnamelastinitial with my first name and last initial. "Larry Caldwell" <firstnamelastinitial@peaksky.com> wrote in message > 01.iinet.net.au>, ask@itshall (FarmI) says... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > advancing old age, but they're going to have to haul me out of here on a > gurney. Yes. The thought of moving into either closer contact in a townhouse or an OPH is rather daunting. > I spent several hours yesterday cutting up downed wood and stacking it > for hauling. I took a break about 4, then went back out and worked > until 8:30. I feel pretty good this morning. There's nothing like a > little exercise to help you sleep. Now if the arthritis would just back > off... A friend of mine who had a huge problems with his arthritic knees found that when he started to eat a small can of tuna for lunch every day he became effectively symptom free. "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in news:48856736$0$20504$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net .au: > "Larry Caldwell" <firstnamelastinitial@peaksky.com> wrote > in message [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes. The thought of moving into either closer contact in a > townhouse or an OPH is rather daunting. my father, 83, just moved into an Assisted Living Community. his house is a free standing 2 bedroom bungalow with a small yard maintained by groundskeepers (but he can plant flowers or veggies) & there is weekly housekeeping available. it has call buttons in case he needs assistance if he falls or something. should he get to a point where he needs more active involvement, like becoming forgetful of medications or unable to attend to his needs, he would move to an apartment in the facility where he would be more closely monitored. residents with more severe end-of-life needs are moved to a nursing facility in the same complex. he seems to think it's a good idea. i would prefer he had chosen someplace closer though. lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. Sheldon <PENMART01@aol.com> wrote in news:48eaca98-3e72-46d7-bb3f-ad4bf8ffc2d6@c58g2000hsc.googlegr oups.com: >> �the attic is the only place that currently has any >> insulation, & it's 6-8" thick. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > goes down and the outside temperature cools, before all the > heat in the attic pushed down into the house. nope. no fiberglas. it's the old 70s blow-in vermiculite type stuff. it's not really vermiculite. looks like it, but i forget what the insulation is called. it most likely could use more insulation up there, but that's not happening this year. this year i: built a barn: $50k replaced both 40+ year old oil tanks: $5k am replacing the roof (adding soffits & vents): $20k (100 year warrantee) replacing the gutters: $2k insulating the walls: $10. i also replaced the well pump & both well pressure tanks, & the well pump and water heater at the house in NY. plus i had cancer & no insurance... there *is* a limit to what i can pay out-of-pocket at one time. >> �all my windows, except the basement windows, are triple >> pane gas filled. the unfortunate thing about them is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of sun streaming in, it fades all the carpeting and > furniture fabrics. true, but it feels good sitting in the sun by the window in the winter. my new windows are also low-E & coated to prevent sun fade. i do like that feature (although the tint is obvious when looking through the glass). > Older houses were constructed very poorly regarding > insulation, if you have none in the walls I strongly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that are left over from previous jobs they did for > builders... i'm probably going to go with the guy that knows the building style of my house. there is a really huge difference between a balloon frame house (stud walls) & an old post & beam built house (random crossbracing & diagonal interior beams). most installers were telling me how insulating a stud wall works & looked baffled when i asked how they'd work around the diagonals. if i had a house with stud walls, i'd pull out the lathe & plaster & put in batt insulation & drywall myself. the thing many people don't understand about these old post & beam houses is that the lathe & plaster serves the function that sheathing does on stud walls. if you remove it & put in drywall, it'll look pretty for a few years, but eventually the house starts to rack. i really love old houses, so i try to learn as much as possible about how they work... however, when i finally do find my farm in NY, we'll be building a nice new reproduction of an old house using modern insulation, plumbing & heating ;) lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. > the > thing many people don't understand about these old post & beam > houses is that the lathe & plaster serves the function that > sheathing does on stud walls. if you remove it & put in > drywall, it'll look pretty for a few years, but eventually the > house starts to rack. You can buy sheathing gyp board. It is normally used for exterior firewall applications, but can be used for interior finish too. It has a glass fiber composite structure that gives it shear strength. SignatureFor email, replace firstnamelastinitial with my first name and last initial. >> the >> thing many people don't understand about these old post & [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > interior finish too. It has a glass fiber composite > structure that gives it shear strength. hmmm. this wouldn't be a Home Depot sort of purchase, would it? more a real building supply type thing? lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. > >> the > >> thing many people don't understand about these old post & [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hmmm. this wouldn't be a Home Depot sort of purchase, would > it? more a real building supply type thing? I have no idea what Home Depot does. I think I bought some grass seed there once, but that is it. Yes, I patronize local, independent lumber yards. Many of my projects involve materials that the big box stores won't stock anyway. I have a lot better luck finding someone who knows what I want at a lumber yard, and knows that there is a difference between a cantilevered glue-lam and a span glue-lam. Prices tend to be better at lumber yards too. For hobbyist stuff, I sometimes go to Lowe's. For instance, Lowe's had some 3/8" thick pine planks that I used to build an enclosure for the automotive AM/FM/CD in my travel trailer. Lumber yards don't stock stuff like that. I don't remember what the unit price was for the attic insulation, but recall that it was dirt cheap. I think I paid about $800 to do a 1700 sf attic 16" thick, starting from virtually nothing. There was 3" of insulation in about 2/3 of the attic, and nothing in the rest. You have to over-install a bit because it settles over time. I live in a mild climate, so I was shooting for R-38. The insulation does as much in the summer as in the winter. A couple days rent on the blower was free if I bought the insulation at the lumber yard. As DIY projects go, the payback was immediate. I would never have been able to do a decent job without the roof tear- off. If you are re-roofing, you should really think about insulating the attic at the same time. Now is the time to knock holes in the roof and blow in the extra insulation. From the sounds of the warranty, you will never get that kind of attic access again. SignatureFor email, replace firstnamelastinitial with my first name and last initial. The way I look at things, if I can reduce my cost of living now (at any cost) it is well worth it. In the future the cost of improvements will be paid off and my monthly expenses will be lower. Thus in the future I will have more "fun" money. I'll just say I started doing this about 8 years ago. I've spent thousands of dollars on anything and everything I can afford to reduce my monthly bills and these things are now paid off. I have a car which gets 38 mpg. My electric bill this winter will be about $30 a month. And I have free-to-air satellite TV. (No natural gas bill, no oil bill, no cable or satellite TV bill.) I'm using the extra money I now have available to further reduce my cost of living. It is a game for me as to what can I do to reduce or eliminate each of my monthly bills. (Solar water heater, solar electric, new energy star appliances, more insulation, energy star windows, etc.) Note that years ago people told me I was foolish spending so much money on this stuff. Said I should invest it instead and would get a better return on my money. Well I'm glad I did not do that! Tips... misc.consumers.frugal-living http://www.energystar.gov "enigma" wrote in message >i figure heating oil in New England will pass $5/gallon this > winter. assuming we have similar weather to last winter, that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pretty short, but what's the formula for figuring it? > lee > The way I look at things, if I can reduce my cost of living now (at any > cost) it is well worth it. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > this stuff. Said I should invest it instead and would get a better return on > my money. Well I'm glad I did not do that! It's almost always more economical to move to a better constructed house than to continue year after year putting good money after bad... it's like painting a bridge, by the time you get to the other end it's time to begin all over again. But there is no way to discuss the economics of home maintenance/improvement intelligently with those who are emotionally driven... you can spend your entire life chasing your tail rather than live your life and then you get too old and die... that house is literally gonna kill you, that's your "any cost". There really isn't much to the simple break even calculations. ASSuming you have the $10k, what productive use can you put it do other an insulaton for your home? If the best you can do is get 3% from your bank, then your $10k when invested in insulation would only have to save your $300/year to justify the expense. Even if you could get 10% on your money, you would only have to save 10% on your fuel bill to "break even." If you have to borrow the $10k, what is your interest rate you pay? Compare the interest rate to what you would save in fuel. This ASSumes that you or your family will stay in the house forever. If you plan to sell in a few years you have to decide whether your "improvements" will be appreciated by your potential buyers. (Hint: they usually aren't.) In that case you need a shorter "pay off" time. An easy way of doing the math is to see whether your energy savings would pay off a $10k loan before you sell the house. All that said, it's easy to over react the first year energy becomes expensive. You might want to do all the "cheap stuff" for this winter. The "cheap stuff" is mainly stopping air leaks and lowering the thermostat. You maintain comfort with electric heaters placed where you are actually sitting. When fuel oil becomes quite expensive, it pays to compare the cost of electric heating with the cost of oil heat. Remember that electic heat is 100% efficient. A 60 watt electric blanket can keep you comfortable in a room that's in the 50s. At the limit you can set your thermostat just a few degrees above that needed to protect your pipes on a cold night and use extra blankets, clothing, and electric heat as needed to kept the warm bodies warm. >i figure heating oil in New England will pass $5/gallon this > winter. assuming we have similar weather to last winter, that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pretty short, but what's the formula for figuring it? > lee ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** > There really isn't much to the simple break even calculations. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If you have to borrow the $10k, what is your interest rate you pay? > Compare the interest rate to what you would save in fuel. That's an interesting way of looking at it. I would guess that $10k would easily save $1k a year in heating and cooling costs, particularly in a cold climate. > This ASSumes that you or your family will stay in the house forever. If > you plan to sell in a few years you have to decide whether your > "improvements" will be appreciated by your potential buyers. (Hint: they > usually aren't.) My wife felt I was going overboard on energy upgrades a few years ago. Except for the new entry doors, all the upgrades were invisible. Then she started walking around the house in bare feet in the winter without freezing her toes off. Then she saw the drop in the electric bill. Then energy costs started taking off like a rocket. Now she thinks I was a pretty smart guy. > In that case you need a shorter "pay off" time. > > An easy way of doing the math is to see whether your energy savings would > pay off a $10k loan before you sell the house. People's habits change with the economy. In the days of cash cow real estate, people traded up for more expensive houses. The *average* length of stay in a house was just over 3 years(!). Now, if someone is fortunate enough not to be losing their house to foreclosure, they have hunkered down and won't be selling any time soon. > All that said, it's easy to over react the first year energy becomes > expensive. You might want to do all the "cheap stuff" for this winter. > The "cheap stuff" is mainly stopping air leaks and lowering the thermostat. > You maintain comfort with electric heaters placed where you are actually > sitting. I disagree. The only reason not to insulate is if you can't afford it. > When fuel oil becomes quite expensive, it pays to compare the cost of > electric heating with the cost of oil heat. Remember that electic heat is > 100% efficient. A 60 watt electric blanket can keep you comfortable in a > room that's in the 50s. There are multiple strategies. Fortunately, older homes often have provisions for wood heat. My brother-in-law installed an insert in a downstairs fireplace last year, and it saved them 50% of their fuel bill last winter. Pellet stoves are another option. > At the limit you can set your thermostat just a few degrees above that > needed to protect your pipes on a cold night and use extra blankets, > clothing, and electric heat as needed to kept the warm bodies warm. <grin> I wish I had stock in long john manufacturers. SignatureFor email, replace firstnamelastinitial with my first name and last initial. >> There really isn't much to the simple break even >> calculations. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > that $10k would easily save $1k a year in heating and > cooling costs, particularly in a cold climate. i'm in NH. so far the low for this year is -7.6F (not taking wind chill into account. we have average 10MPH wind year round, but it gets pretty windy in the winter... & i live 4 miles from where that tornado hit last Thursday) i have the 10k (if you know a bank that gives over 2% interest, tell me!). i also have a line of credit, but i'd prefer not to use it right now. > >> This ASSumes that you or your family will stay in the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Then energy costs started taking off like a rocket. Now > she thinks I was a pretty smart guy. somehow i think that trying to sell an uninsulated house in NH with heating oil pushing towards $5/gallon would be next to impossible... insulation is going to be a buyer priority soon, if it isn't already. i am in the process of making this place work for me, but with an eye on reselling if i find that farm in NY that suits my purpose (which hasn't happened in the last 12 years, so...) >> In that case you need a shorter "pay off" time. only if it doesn't increase both my comfort in the meantime & the selling price in a few years. i'm pretty sure lack of insulation is going to really adversly affect selling price... but realisticly, the current recession is going to adversely affect it even more. i do happen to own the largest residential/ag zoned chunk of land in the town though, so i have that going for it (and it can't be subdivided). >> An easy way of doing the math is to see whether your >> energy savings would pay off a $10k loan before you sell [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to be losing their house to foreclosure, they have hunkered > down and won't be selling any time soon. i have noticed that many places on the market are houses with poor insulation, older heating systems, cathedral ceilings, window walls. people are trying to unload homes they can't afford to heat as well. >> All that said, it's easy to over react the first year >> energy becomes expensive. You might want to do all the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I disagree. The only reason not to insulate is if you > can't afford it. yeah, *not* insulating seems rather silly. caulking is cheap & air leaks are really minor when you're talking *no* insulation. and my electric bills tend to top $200/month in the winter anyway, & that's before the lovely 13% rate hike that just went into effect July 1st. electric heaters don't seem like a cheap option to me, thanks. maybe next year when i install a wind turbine... >> When fuel oil becomes quite expensive, it pays to compare >> the cost of electric heating with the cost of oil heat. >> Remember that electic heat is 100% efficient. A 60 watt >> electric blanket can keep you comfortable in a room that's >> in the 50s. my room is in the 50s already. a down comforter (or even a polyester fill one) can keep you warm *without* electricity. i hate trying to sleep in a hot room. > There are multiple strategies. Fortunately, older homes > often have provisions for wood heat. My brother-in-law > installed an insert in a downstairs fireplace last year, > and it saved them 50% of their fuel bill last winter. > Pellet stoves are another option. i have 5 fireplaces. the two upstairs are covered, but there's no reason they couldn't be used. the chimneys are in great shape (except that damned right angle one, but i can put a pellet stove in there in another spot, or run in lines from an external wood burner, which is on the agenda for heating a greenhouse anyway... if we don't move) >> At the limit you can set your thermostat just a few >> degrees above that needed to protect your pipes on a cold >> night and use extra blankets, clothing, and electric heat >> as needed to kept the warm bodies warm. i lived in an uninsulated old house with a barely functioning furnace (100 gallons of heating oil every 2 days keeping 2 rooms at 40F & shutting off the radiators everywhere else). it had no fireplace (& my landlord's electric was on my bill...) i will not do that ever again. lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.