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Homeowner Forum / Lawn and Garden / March 2006Home made insecticidal soap for chemical sensitive folks
A funny thing happened on the way to putting an home addition and looking into increasing the size of my humble greenhouse. I became super sensitive to everything that has most man-made VOCs. Paints, perfumes, insecticidal soap, and unbelievable number of things I can't be exposed to for more than a few minutes, if that. So now mealy bugs are terrorizing my plants, but I can't use standard neem oil or insecticidal soap. Any suggestions before I loose my entire stock? I did see cooking oil and dishwashing oil. I can tolerate Dr Bonner's castille soap, might that be a substitute for dishwashing soap. Are there any unscented dishwashing soaps? My plants and I would welcome any suggestions. Thanks Mike That sucks... I've been trying a new thing that a friend brought over called... 'organocide'. Despite the scary name, the ingredients are %3 sesame oil, 90+% fish oil, and lecithin. Doesn't smell nearly as bad as you might think, and whatever odor there was went away after a day. Makes leaves nice and shiny. Supposed to take care of scale and mealybugs, spidermites, and aphid, and... who knows, the label makes some pretty broad claims. You could probably also use ultrafine (horticultural) grade oil, or failing that (I don't think any VOCs, but I'm not sensitive) a light cooking oil. All of those oil sprays work by smothering insects. Rob > A funny thing happened on the way to putting an home addition and > looking into increasing the size of my humble greenhouse. I became [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > there any unscented dishwashing soaps? My plants and I would welcome > any suggestions.  SignatureRob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a) See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more orchids, obtain more credit Mike, I wonder whether some kind of unscented baby oil and baby wash would work? Since many parents are concerned with allergies, super-sensitive baby products are available. I do not know however whether these products will kill the mealy bugs. Looking for allergy dish liquid or allergy dish soap, I found the following on the Web: http://www.alerg.com/page/A/CTGY/CLN3 http://www.allergybegone.com/envirorite.html Hope this helps, Joanna >A funny thing happened on the way to putting an home addition and > looking into increasing the size of my humble greenhouse. I became [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Mike Mike, can you tolerate dog bath soap for fleas? A couple of folks have mentioned that option to me, though I have not tried it personally. Diana There's the old 409/rubbing alcohol/water mixture. But there are also those who say Dr Bronner's works just as well. Use at the same rate as for dishsoap. K Barrett >A funny thing happened on the way to putting an home addition and > looking into increasing the size of my humble greenhouse. I became [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Mike Even alcohol based products. Right now my wife chases me out of the house so she can clean the bathroom. I guess I stay with what I know I can deal with. Unless someone knows I shouldn't use DR B. I'll use the castille soap and seseme oil. I looked at the label of alsafer dishwashing soap and because I don't know enough about household chemistry, I don't know what to think about nonionic surfactants. Other than a general discussion by one site, below, I can't tell if it would be safe. Thanks everyone. Mike Nonionic surfactants are illustrated in Figure 1. Although ionic surfactants exist, the most prevalent form of surfactant used with herbicides is the nonionic form. Most nonionic surfactants are composed of linear or nonyl-phenol alcohols or fatty acids. The function of surfactants in this class is to reduce surface tension, improve leaf surface spreading and sticking, and improve herbicide absorption. Some examples of nonionic surfactants include X-77 (UAP), Induce (Helena), Activator 90 (UAP), Triton Ag 98 (Rhone-Poulenc) and R-11 (Wilfarm). > There's the old 409/rubbing alcohol/water mixture. But there are also those > who say Dr Bronner's works just as well. Use at the same rate as for [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > > Mike For organic gardening qwiht roses, it is always recommended you use non phosphate soaps and something like vegetable oil (canola, corn, Cotteonseed, Sesame etc) 1 tablespoon of each in a gallon of water. Home Depot, Lowes, andmost organic garden stores sell forms of insecticidal soap which are potassium fats adn > Even alcohol based products. Right now my wife chases me out of the > house so she can clean the bathroom. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> > >> > Mike All that scrub-a-dub does not get the bugs out of the roots and plant medium. You can use natural nicotine (sulfate), if you can find it. called balck leaf 40. not on the us market. You can try Bayer tree & shrub insect control. it is the least expensive way to buy imidacloprid. this is called synthetic niclotine, amoung other things. Use as a systemic. Mix in with your regular ferterlizer, and soak the growing medium. Needs 3 or 4 weekly treatments. I presume this is because orckids do not injest like a lot of other green leafy plants. The stuff is avaliable at home depot, and lowes, and is not very expensive for a very large amount. >A funny thing happened on the way to putting an home addition and >looking into increasing the size of my humble greenhouse. I became [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Mike > All that scrub-a-dub does not get the bugs out of the roots and plant > medium. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The stuff is avaliable at home depot, and lowes, and is not very > expensive for a very large amount. What concentration do you mix in? SignatureChris Dukes Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil >> All that scrub-a-dub does not get the bugs out of the roots and plant >> medium. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >What concentration do you mix in? I have never used the black flag nicotine. Bottle is 20 years old. The tree & shrub I use 4 oz into 2 or 3 gal.which is not on the container, but I worked out from this article: http://www.njorchids.org/articles/Mealybug/Mealybug.htm This stuff is toxic. keep it away from people and pets, which is not spelled out on the container. One container (32 oz) is about enough to treat a couple thousand orchids for a couple years. Nicotine sulfate is (I believe) derived commercially from tobacco, not synthesized. I have always heard that you can transmit TMV (tobacco mosaic virus) using nicotine as a pesticide. I don't know if this is anecdote or data (the plural of anecdote is not data). Many orchid growers won't even allow people to smoke in their greenhouse, myself included. Again for fears of TMV transmission (or in my case, because I can't stand cigarette smoke). If I see somebody smoking in the greenhouse, I'll assume they are on fire and act accordingly. I can use the TMV thing as an excuse... On the other hand, I know many very good growers who smoke like chimneys, in the greenhouse and out. They don't seem worried about TMV. For my money, there are far less toxic compounds than nicotine that you can use for your pesticide needs. Many of the chemical pesticides you can buy off the shelves these days are almost completely non-toxic to mammals (at the recommended doses, anyway), the toxic ones are just not available anymore. Just because it is 'natural' does not make it safe. Most of the most potent poisons known to man are natural (dart frog toxin, ricin, and botulism toxin are three nasty ones). Nicotine is right up there. I'd dispose of the nicotine (safely, somehow) and stick with the bayer spray (imidocloprid). >> What concentration do you mix in? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > One container (32 oz) is about enough to treat a couple thousand > orchids for a couple years. SignatureRob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a) See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more orchids, obtain more credit > Nicotine sulfate is (I believe) derived commercially from tobacco, not > synthesized. .. Yep. And virtually all of it comes from India. You'd think the US tobacco crop would be a source, but it isn't. Nicotine will kill just about any bug on the planet, but it is readily absorbed by human skin and can easily kill a careless user. Anybody using Black Leaf 40, if they can find it, needs to wear long sleeves, long pants, chemical goggles and long rubber gloves. In use, the BL40 is mixed with an alkaline soap solution to produce the alkaloid form of nicotine which is more potent than the sulfate form. My grandfather used BL40 on his roses back in the 1950's-60's. It worked.. J. Del Col >I'd dispose of the nicotine (safely, somehow) and stick with the bayer >spray (imidocloprid). The bayer is not a spray. it is a systemic. I dip the plants in a bucket, and drain. If you look up http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/imidaclo.htmimid, you will see it is not to go into your martini mix. since not sprayed, is not real bad. wear gloves. >> I'd dispose of the nicotine (safely, somehow) and stick with the bayer >> spray (imidocloprid). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > since not sprayed, is not real bad. wear gloves. It is indeed a spray... As long as we are nitpicking. Regardless of whether it is a systemic or not. At least in most applications it is applied as a spray, and you can even buy it in a premixed version for that purpose, with it's own hose-end sprayer... http://tinyurl.com/nd6yd. I apply the bayer 'spray' or whatever you want to call it as a drench. With a hose. I don't like dipping plants, you can (supposedly) transmit virus or other pathogens that way. Unless you change your dipping solution between each plant, and I'm not doing that. I doubt that communal dunking is a major vector for viral transmission, but I prefer the 'better safe than sorry' approach. There is a 'translaminar' formulation (called Marathon II, I believe) which will actually enter the plant through the leaf. But I can't afford it. When saying it was 'safe' I meant in relation to nicotine... I concur that you don't want to put it in martinis (I prefer beer, anyway). Most pesticides that you can buy off the shelf these days have very high LD50s, in other words, it takes a whole lotta product to harm you, and you would probably have to go out of your way and either bathe in concentrated solution or drink it neat. In this case, the LD50 for mouse is 131mg/kg, and rat 450mg/kg (interesting difference!). http://tinyurl.com/kqbr4 That means my portly self would have to consume about 13 grams of pure compound (assuming I'm a mouse) for me to have a 50% chance of kicking the bucket. Doesn't mean smaller doses wouldn't hurt, though, and for that reason and many others it is common sense to use protective clothing when applying anything. Even fertilizer, really. Just for kicks, the oral LD50 for nicotine (in the rat) is 50mg/kg. And 140mg/kg for dermal (through the skin) contact. And the MSDS says that it is very readily absorbed through the skin. Yikes! SignatureRob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a) See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more orchids, obtain more credit > I have never used the black flag nicotine. Bottle is 20 years old. I meant the bayer. About the only nicotine use I've heard of recently is nicotine smoke bombs (Good for killing off spider mites for a week) and suspect they've been yanked from the US market as well. > The tree & shrub I use 4 oz into 2 or 3 gal.which is not on the > container, but I worked out from this article: > > http://www.njorchids.org/articles/Mealybug/Mealybug.htm Excellent, thanks. > This stuff is toxic. keep it away from people and pets, which is not > spelled out on the container. > > One container (32 oz) is about enough to treat a couple thousand > orchids for a couple years. Heh. SignatureChris Dukes Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil Mike I am curious as to your allergies? Is it a breathing thing? Like Asthma? I have one of those gas masks that have the two round fine filters. They really work. My mentor uses one every time he sprays anything. He wears long sleeves & rubber gloves, lotion on his face & a cap! My plants got invaded by scale & mealies two years ago & still trying to get rid of them. I have been using Enstar & Mavrik together, been told it will do the trick. Very expensive so I am trying to repot everything as well as keeping up with the regimen. SignatureCheers Wendy Remove PETERPAN for email reply > A funny thing happened on the way to putting an home addition and > looking into increasing the size of my humble greenhouse. I became [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Mike Hi Wendy7 It is lung tissue permeability to VOCs. So, depending upon the chemical, alcohol, aldehydes, benzenes, acetones etc, I will take on the symptoms as if exposed directly to a strong dose of that chemical. Symptoms like fatigue, head-aches, dizzy-ness, loss of balance, breathing restrictions. And depending on the exposure, and I'm talking about doses that people find annoying when a little old person slathers it on,lotion, perfume, or fabric spray, I've been bed-ridden for up to two full days and general discomfort afterwards. So, I have to find simple solutions like soap and oil, picking off the bugs, I really can't risk exposure to many of the things that people are suggesting. I too have a gas mask like that. I find that even wearing masks with new cartridges in painted rooms I start sensing significant levels after 15 minutes or so, and after that they're no good. Part of the problem is I can't always sense a harmful source till I start experiencing symptoms. Unfortunately, there is only one true method of preventing exposure to harmful chemicals and that is don't go into environments with harmful chemicals. Mike, go here: www.firstrays.com Ray has loads of natural remedies on his site. I don't know why we didn't suggest it before now. Diana Oh my, sorry to hear that you have this problem, I damaged my esophagus a year ago, accidently breathing in exhaust fumes! You are going to have to go the natural way, using predators, like LadyBugs etc. Hope you find something. SignatureCheers Wendy Remove PETERPAN for email reply > Hi Wendy7 > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > of preventing exposure to harmful chemicals and that is don't go into > environments with harmful chemicals. Looks like there are some active environmentalist in Alaska with the same concerns. Here is one page that suggests using castille soap http://www.ipmofalaska.homestead.com/files/soap.html Thanks everyone. > Oh my, sorry to hear that you have this problem, I damaged my esophagus a year ago, > accidently breathing in exhaust fumes! [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > of preventing exposure to harmful chemicals and that is don't go into > > environments with harmful chemicals. |
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