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Homeowner Forum / Lawn and Garden / July 2008Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters. As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked" in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so. TIA Paul > residual Sevin <http://www.backedbybayer.com/Bayer/CropScience/BackedByBayer.nsf/id/EN_G olf_Sevin_Product_Information> Bill  SignatureGarden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA In article <b2forewagner-B236F8.15320921072008@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, > > residual Sevin > > <http://www.backedbybayer.com/Bayer/CropScience/BackedByBayer.nsf/id/EN_G > olf_Sevin_Product_Information> > > Bill www.afpmb.org/pubs/standardlists/msds/6840-01-104-0887_msds.pdf SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related > In article > <b2forewagner-B236F8.15320921072008@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > www.afpmb.org/pubs/standardlists/msds/6840-01-104-0887_msds.pdf I failed to see mention of time limits or half life info listed at the above mentioned. Just first aid ( after the fact ) and prevetitive info. Or did I miss something ? Thanks for the pointer. = Paul = >> residual Sevin > > <http://www.backedbybayer.com/Bayer/CropScience/BackedByBayer.nsf/id/EN_G > olf_Sevin_Product_Information> > > Bill Hmmmm .."Sevin provides at least 2 weeks residual insect control from a single application" Thanks for the pointer. A month has passed. Two more weeks until they're ripe enough to pick. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try to wash/rinse the individual grape bunches with mild soapy water and use a paint brush to scrub with. I've had a bumper crop this year and would hate to loose all those pretty grapes. Then again getting poisoned over it doesn't sound very inviting. Do you suppose my idea of washing the bunches off to be a realistic solution ? = Paul = > >> residual Sevin > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > = Paul = No. Rinse any pesticide residue off and ferment dry. If it doesn't go dry, chuck it. SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related >>> residual Sevin >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > = Paul = Don't belive most of this "safe" to eat after a month...etc. Sevin is a material which can penetrate the walls of cells and remain in the tissue of the fruit. I would not eat one grape on those vines. Do what you want, but I don't think you can wash out any sustemic uptake of Sevin. > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Paul I wouldn't eat them. >> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I wouldn't eat them. I hadn't planned on eating them. I wish to make wine of them. I might try washing the binches with mild soapy water and see how they look. Hopefully I can get it (Sevin) gone... But if'n that don't do it, I will trash the grapes and not take a chance. = Paul = >>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven >>> dust to my grapevine [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > = Paul = I believe the normal time before harvest is seven days - BUT - you put on a heavy dose AND on the fruit. I would call the manufacturer and ask them. You might also consider getting a back pack sprayer. In the future, consider Imidan. It is suppose to be more friendly to beneficals and it will kill the beatles. Also, the beatles do not eat the fruit so there really is no need to use the seven on them. I only use pesticides on the fruit if I see a heavy infestation of the Grape Berry Moths. The beatles eat the youngest shoots at the top of the canopy, not the older leaves or the fruit. >>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>>due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > = Paul = Okay Paul, if it can systemically enter your skin and cause harmful reactions, don't you know it will also be systemic on the cell walls of grapes? >>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>>>due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > reactions, don't you know it will also be systemic on the cell walls > of grapes? Yes. But I was hoping that a 6 week duration might be long enough for the dust to break down in toxicity. My neighbor puts the stuff on all her greens ( collard, cabbage, turnip etc ). She pounces it on with an old nylon stocking. In fact, she does the same with her corn (at the silk end of the ear just as soon as soon as silk appears). I know one thing. I'll never use Sevin on my grapes again. I used to use a Pyrethrin based pesticide ( Tiger Brand ) but haven't seen it at the store this year. It breaks down rather quickly and most veggies can be ingested within a week after it's use. The Sevin was given to me and I tried it. I made a mistake. All I want to know now is ( and I thought that was clear ) has enough time passed to degrade the dust enough or would it still be hazardous ( ... and would washing them be of any use ) . In two weeks I will pick said grapes. I will attempt to wash the bunches by hand. Depending of that outcome, I will either prepare them for wine or if washing doesn't seem to remove the residue I will trash those bunches that won't wash clean. = Paul = "Paul J. Dudley" <mrpauljdudley@embarqmail.com> wrote in message >> >> Okay Paul, if it can systemically enter your skin and cause harmful >> reactions, don't you know it will also be systemic on the cell walls [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > nylon stocking. In fact, she does the same with her corn (at the silk > end of the ear just as soon as soon as silk appears). You got to be kidding. Have people still not learned to have more respect for the environment and themselves? > I know one thing. I'll never use Sevin on my grapes again. I used to > use a Pyrethrin based pesticide ( Tiger Brand ) but haven't seen it at [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > or if washing doesn't seem to remove the residue I will trash those > bunches that won't wash clean. As someone else pointed out, the grapes will have absorbed the Sevin. No way would I ever eat them or use them in wine. Sounds like that was a really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats poison. > "Paul J. Dudley" <mrpauljdudley@embarqmail.com> > wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > have absorbed the Sevin. No way would I ever eat > them or use them in wine. Unless you never drink wine, there is a VERY high probability that you have drunk wine that was grown using Sevin or Carbaryl 80 WP (liquid Sevin) > Sounds like that was a > really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles > are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown > and sure when they're at peak you have to do it > every day but it still beats poison. I have a backyard vineyard of 110 vines. I will give you a glass of wine each time you come out and drown them for me :-). I know a lot of commercial vineyards around here that will make you the same offer. >> really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles >> are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> cabbage, turnip etc ). She pounces it on with >>> an old nylon stocking. In fact, she does the >Unless you never drink wine, there is a VERY high >probability that you have drunk wine that was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Sounds like that was a >commercial vineyards around here that will make >you the same offer. Gallo wine is and has been a completely certified organic product for decades. > >> really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles > >> are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Gallo wine is and has been a completely certified organic product for > decades. Eeeeeh. The good news: Organic wine is a growing trend. Gallo, the largest U.S. winemaker with 33% market share, currently has 2,700 of its 9,000 total acreage organically certified. Bad news: Gallo buys 2/3 of California grapes, mostly from the bulk wine area of the "Central Vally". Most Gallo wine isn't certified organic. Which isn't to say that it isn't drinkable. Most of it is simply "California" (anywhere in California) not necessarily one of the premium, cooler, wine growing regions like North Coast or Central Coast or Alexander Valley or Edna Valley. The last I checked (2003) the following local wineries were organic to some extent. The following wineries have been ranked as: all organic vineyard and no sulfites wines, all organic vineyard wines, bio-dynamic vineyards, and organic vineyards In order for a wine to qualify as organic, it must have just 10 parts (or fewer) per million sulfites. ----------------------------------------------- All organic vineyard and no sulfites wines H. Coturri & Sons LTD. Visits by appointment All wines made from organically-grown grapes, with no sulfites or other preservatives added. P.O. Box 396 6725 Enterprise Rd., Glen Ellen, CA 95442, Telephone: (707) 525-9126 Fax:(707)542-8039 e-mail: stgeorge@ap.net web site - http://www.coturriwinery.com/ Founded 1979 Wines: Albarello, Merlot, Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Sauvignon/Sangiovese, Sangiovese, Zinfandel Frey Vineyards All wines made from organically-grown grapes, with no sulfites added. Tastings by appointment only 14000 Tomki Rd, Redwood Valley CA 95470 Tel: 707.485.5177, 1.800.760.3739, Fax: 707.485.7875 web site - www.freywine.com Email: info@freywine.com Tastings by appointment only. Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc,Gewurztraminer, Natural White, Blush, Sauvignon Blanc, Zinfandel, Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, Petite Sirah, Pinot, Merlot, Natural Red other wineries that produce wines without sulfites: Orleans Hill Vintners Association, P.O. Box 1254, Woodland, CA 95776 Tel: (530) 661-6538 FAX: (530) 661-1864 Founded 1980 La Rocca Vineyards, P.O. Box 541, Forest Ranch, CA 95942 Winery: 12360Doe Mill Rd., Forest Ranch, CA 95942 Tel: (530) 899-9463, (800) 808-9463, Fax: (530) 894-7268 e-mail: info@laroccavineyards.com web site: www.aroccavineyards.com Founded 1984 Vinatura, 819 J Street, Arcata, CA 95501 Tel.: (707) 822-7272 Honeyrun 2309 Park Ave., Chico, CA 95928 Phone: (530) 345-6405 Fax: (530) 894-6639 The Organic Wine Works/Hallcrest Vineyards 379 Felton Empire Rd., Felton, CA 95018 Phone: (408) 335-4441 or (800) 699-9463 Fax: (408) 335-4450 Hours: Daily 11am-5:30pm ---------------------- All organic vineyard wines Fetzer Vineyards/Bonterra Vineyards All Bonterra wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes 13601 Eastside Rd., Hopland, CA 95449 Tel.: 800.846.8637 ext. 604, or 707.744.7600 ext. 604 e-mail from web site web site - http://www.fetzer.com/ Wines: Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, Viognier, Sangiovese Frog's Leap All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes P.O. Box 189, 8815 Conn Creek Road, Rutherford CA 94573 Tel: (800) 959-4704 or (707) 963-4704 Fax: (707) 963-0242 e-mail: ribbit@frogsleap.com web site - http://www.frogsleap.com/ Merlot, Zinfandel, Chardonnay, Leapfrogsmilch, Sauvignon Blanc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Rutherford (Cabernet Sauvignon/Cabernet Franc ) Lolonis Winery (No chemical pesticides since 1956.) All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes Mailing Address: 1904 Olympic Blvd., Ste. 8A, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Winery: 1905 Road D, Redwood Valley, CA Tel: Sales & Mktg. Off. (510) 938-8066 Fax: (510) 938-8069 e-mail: sls.mrkting@lolonis.com web site - : www.lolonis.com/ Founded 1962 Wines: Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, Viognier, Merlot, Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, Valdiguie, Petit Syrah, Zinfandel, Cabernet Franc Madonna Estate Mont St. John All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes 5400 Old Sonoma Rd. Napa, CA 94559 Tel: (707) 255-8864 Fax (707) 257-2778 e-mail: madonnaestate@madonnaestate.com web site - http://www.montstjohn.com/ Founded 1977 Wines: Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Grigio, Johannisberg Riesling, Gewurztraminer and Muscat di Canelli Napa Wine Company All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes Tastings are available by appointment P.O. Box 434 7830 - 40 St. Helena Hwy, Oakville, Ca 94562 Tel: (800) 848-9630 or (707) 944-1710 e-mail: retail@napawineco.com. web site - http://www.napawineco.com/ Wines: Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Blanc, Cabernet Sauvignon Vigil Vineyards Estate Reserve Terra Vin is made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes 3340 Hwy. 128, Calistoga CA 94515 Tel: (707) 942-2900 e-mail: vigilwine@aol.com web site - http://www.vigilwine.com Wine: Estate Reserve Terra Vin (Zinfandel/Carignan/Refosco) Yorkville Cellars All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes 5701 Highway 128 P.O. Box Three Yorkville (population 146), CA 95494 USA Tel: 707.894.9177 Fax: 707.894.2426 e-mail: yvcellars@pacific.net web site - http://www.yorkville-cellars.com/ Wine: Sauvignon Blanc, Semillon, Eleanor of Aquitaine (Semillon/Sauvignon Blanc), Cabernet Franc, Malbec, Petit Verdot, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, Richard the Lion-Heart (Cabernet Franc/Malbec/Petit Verdot/Merlot/Cabernet Sauvignon) --------------------------------------------------------------- Bio-dynamic vineyards Benziger Family Winery and Everett Ridge Vineyard's are now using biodynamic farming practices. Benziger Family Winery at their Sonoma Mountain Estate Vineyards and all of Everett Ridge Vineyard's grapes. Everett Ridge Vineyards were certified organic from CCOF in 1999. Inquire at the wineries to determine if blending from non-organic vineyards occurred. Benziger Family Winery 1883 London Ranch Rd. Glen Ellen, CA 95442 (707) 935 - 3000 - voice (707) 935 - 3016 - fax e-mail: greatwine@benziger.com web site - http://www.benziger.com/index.shtml Everett Ridge Vineyards and Winery 435 West Dry Creek Road, Healdsburg CA 95448 Tel: 707-433-1637 Fax 707-433-7024 e-mail: info@everettridge.com web site - http://www.everettridge.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------- Organic Vineyards The following wineries have, in total or in part, organic vineyards. This however does not mean that grapes from non-organic vineyards were not blended into their wines. Inquire at the wineries. Davis Bynum Winery 8075 Westside Road Healdsburg, California 95448 Tasting Room: (800) 826-1073 Tel: (707) 433-2611 Fax: (707) 433-4309 e-mail: info@davisbynum.com web site - http://www.davisbynum.com/ Kenwood Vineyards P.O. Box 447 Kenwood, CA 95452 Tel: (707) 833-5891 Fax: (707) 833-1146 e-mail: info@heckestates.com web site - http://www.kenwoodvineyards.com/ WE'RE CERTIFIED ORGANIC! March 14, 1996 Three of Kenwood's vineyards are certified organic: Kenwood Estate Vineyard, Yulupa Vineyard, and Upper Weise Kenwood wines are bottled they are in a range of twenty-five to thirty-five parts per million free sulfites. SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related >> >> really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles >> >> are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >give you a glass of wine each time you come out >> >and drown them for me :-). I know a lot of There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an altered header. Sevin is a certified Organic pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest. It is easily washed from fruit. Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides. http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMSearch/Docs/ColoradoPotatoBeetle-Potato.htm Here are the application guides from New York http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/cadusafos-cyromazine/carbaryl/c arbaryl_2eeasia_902.html > >> >> really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles > >> >> are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/cadusafos-cyromazine/carbaryl > /carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html Changed the header again. <http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm> Poison is poison. Recognition of the web of life vs. being apart or separated. <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18619942?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSys tem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum> Bill SignatureGarden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA In article <b2forewagner-FEF8E1.15370323072008@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, Bill <b2forewagner@snip.net> wrote: > > There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an > > altered header. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides. http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMSearch/Docs/ColoradoPotatoBeetle-Potato.htm > > Here are the application guides from New York http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/cadusafos-cyromazine/carbaryl > > /carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html > > Changed the header again. Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the "correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature. An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active ingredient Carbaryl) it is classified a class 1 toxin, and in Sevin, with less active ingredient, it is a class 2 toxin; and it becomes a Class 3 toxin for some other brands which have barely any active ingredient at all. It's toxic in every case with many high-dosage problems and fewer (but still serious) low exposure risks. But whether or not the "last word" on the topic ever comes available, the main thing is that putting "organic" on a toxin doesn't mean organic gardeners would use it, no more than they'd slather aresenic on everything, which'd be perfectly "organic" to do. Sevin will kill beneficial insects, destroy the natural balance, and insure the return of harmful insects while the beneficial will be slower to recover. Carbaryl might LEGALLY be used in organic produce fields but those sort of regulations are never about the best thing for the environment -- they're about how much you can get away with in a one-species commercial crop to maximize harvests and still sell the product at the higher price as organic. Organic gardening is about achieving a healthful balance that does away with even needing toxins, such as can't seriously be achieved in a one-species crop but certainly can be achieved in a balanced multi-species garden for which nature becomes an aid and not a hindrance. The ACTUAL organic method of treating Japanese beetles for a specific example is to increase the entomopathogenic nematode and milky spore population in the soil, following label instructions very narrowly as the desireable microorganisms may not take hold if applied to soil willynilly under less than favorable conditions. These require very specific season and weather conditions to take hold, but once they do, the nematodes will take care of the grubs of a great many harmful species, and the milkly spoor will be a permanent fix that gets the Japanese beetle grubs specifically (it effects no other species at all). Japanese beetles will never recur, as they will when using pesticides like carbaryl which merely start the endless cycle of pesticide dependence. The beneficial microorganism route is unbeatable, but it's not instant, and in the meantime, while waiting two years for milky spore to take care of Japanese beetles completely, the subsidiary organic methods begin with hand-removal when the insects are active on plants (they're great to feed a pet lizard or pixi frog or laying hens or ciclids such as an oscar). Planting something they love to distraction, like a Rose of Sharon or a dwarf crabapple in a very warm/sunny spot, centralizes the beetle-plucking. Further assistance can be from the parastic wasps Tiphia vernalis or T. popilliavora which get the beetle eggs, available from a number of companies and which some neighborhoods join forces to obtain for an entire block. Traps can also be placed about for the adult beetles, which some field studies show take care of as many as three-fourths of the adult beetles in June and August, and work best at garden peripheries away from plants as they effectively draw the beetles out of the garden (whereas placed IN the garden the traps may draw adults from your neighbor's yard and a third or a fourth of those will get side-tracked by cool plants; also there'll be so many beetles in the traps that they'll stink of decomposing insects). In the main, the microorganism route, with some hand-plucking until it takes hold, is all a garden demands to stay fully organic. And the best part is that works way better than carbaryl or any other toxin one might otherwise select. -paghat the ratgirl > <http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Bill Signaturevisit my temperate gardening website: http://www.paghat.com visit my film reviews website: http://www.weirdwildrealm.com > In article > <b2forewagner-FEF8E1.15370323072...@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, Bill [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is > not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active MASSIVE SNIPS OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed with some damn crap. Chris In article <d3f0ffb8-94e4-4ad4-9b3f-a0b06171bc0f@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <b2forewagner-FEF8E1.15370323072...@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, Bill [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Chris Good for you, that is the first step but pesticides come from the same petroleum base as the chem ferts. Your cherry tomatoes are more nutritious without the pesticides and healthier without their residues. Additionally, the easily accessible nitrogen from chem ferts is quickly transported and concentrated in the leaves of your crops, which and makes them desirable to insects. The quality of your crops will be similar to what you would get from hydroponics. The next step is to grow your soil to grow your plants. Chem ferts are salts and damage the food chains (webs, whatever) in the soil. There is a symbiotic relationship between the flora and fauna in the garden soil and the plants that you cultivate which makes for more nutritious and healthier plants. If you already see a half dozen worms in a shovel full of soil, your garden is in good shape and you can keep it that way with alfalfa mulches, green manures (plants), and cover crops. SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related > Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure > when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats > poison. This is utter bullcrap. When tried, they quickly fly away only to come back in 10 to 15 minutes and pick up where they left off. If one or two end up in the bowl of water you're lucky. And try that when there are hundreds of plants involved. >> Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure >> when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the bowl of water you're lucky. And try that when there are hundreds of >plants involved. Really? I've used a mason jar or mayo jar with 1/2" of water in the bottom and a drop or two of dishwashing liquid. Maybe one out of 20 will fly away, but most will drop into the soapy water. I can easily catch 100 beetles in less than 15 minutes. Milky spore is a complete waste of money. >>>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven >>>>> dust to my grapevine [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > I know one thing. I'll never use Sevin on my > grapes again. Don't ever say never. A lot if not most of the vineyards around here (Northern Virginia / Central Maryland Area - including other areas in the Mid Atlantic) use Sevin on their vineyards. Most commercial growers apply with an air blast sprayer so it goes EVERYWHERE. The concentration you used sounds excessive. I still recommend you contact the manufacturer and see what they say. I would still say you can use it (the sevin you mix with water) and spray the top of your canopy with a back pack sprayer. What kind of grapes are you growing and where do you live? The earliest any grapes are ready for harvest around here are some of the whites and some of them are ready around the 2nd week in September. The reds usually are harvested around the end of September with Merlot being the first. The Cabernet Sauvignon hang until mid to late October. I am saying all this because you may have a variety than can hang longer and thus let nature wash off some of the residue. > I used to > use a Pyrethrin based pesticide ( Tiger Brand ) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > = Paul = There is one other option. You can go ahead and harvest, crush and make your wine and send it out to a lab and have them analyze it for you. They may even be able to tell you in advance what they would recommend without even testing it and charging you. Virginia Tech has a enology program and a lab. You may want to give them a call and state your problem. http://www.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/index.html > Yes. But I was hoping that a 6 week duration might be long enough for > the dust to break down in toxicity. My neighbor puts the stuff on all her [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > = Paul = There is no telling how long the active particles which entered the cells will persist. It's not a matter of washing off what you can see as dust or powder on the grapes themselves. Sevin can enter cells and if it were me, which it wouldn't be due to the nature of my no pesticides at all, I would not eat or use the grapes for anything. A little story: My neighbor had breast cancer and was a nine year survivor. She planted some Mountain Laurels and bag worms appeared. If she asked me first I'd have told her to use a simple pathogen called Bt. No harm to anything but the worms. However, her other neighbor who is an "agronimist" gave her Sevin in a pump up sprayer. She read no label, and had no idea about what she was spraying. She did not have her legs or arms covered and she started to burn terribly and she jumped into my pool to get rid of the stinging. Not one year later she relapsed and is now in stage four, metasticized breast cancer, spread to her sternum and the lining of her lungs. She goes to M.D. Anderson in Houston for treatment. She hangs on by a thread. Did the Sevin do it? I don't know. However, I will never use it. I'd give up the grapes and put them in the trash so not even animals can eat them. >> Yes. But I was hoping that a 6 week duration might be long enough for >> the dust to break down in toxicity. My neighbor puts the stuff on all her [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > will never use it. I'd give up the grapes and put them in the trash > so not even animals can eat them. Your story about the neighbor getting burned has nothing to do with this issue. Your neighbor did not take the proper precautions to cover herself, and use a breathing mask. The issue here is one of retention of the chemical. You have given no evidence of your theory that Sevin penetrates the skin of the grape. I don't believe that. Waiting several weeks after application should elimanate the danger. The Sun and rain will burn and wash off the chemical, plus it will naturally lose it's toxicity. He should check with the manufacturers for confirmation, but I think he is ok with Sevin. He can wash the fruit as he said to be extra sure. Sherwin > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Paul "IF" you get the fermentation to go dry (and only if you get it to go dry), my guess is that it will be safe to drink. That is because either the yeast will have metabolized the residue from the pesticide or will have incorporated it into their bodies (heavy metals). With that in mind, don't age the wine on the lees ;o) SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related >> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > have incorporated it into their bodies (heavy metals). With that in > mind, don't age the wine on the lees ;o) Good point .. Thank you. I will first try to wash/rinse the bunches individually. If that appears to rid the grapes of the residue then I will continue towards making the wine with your suggestions in mind. = Paul = > �Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). > I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole > of the foliage and grape clusters. Didn't you read the directions... that's the dumbest method for applying Sevin. >> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Didn't you read the directions... that's the dumbest method for > applying Sevin. The dust was given to me in a mason jar by my girlfriends father, complete with no instructions. Just toss it across the whole of the vine like he does his peach trees. So that is what I did. If you don't have anything more constructive to offer than your sarcastic critisism, please keep it to yourself. = Paul = >>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > = Paul = Your girlfriends father is a moron. >>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>>> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Your girlfriends father is a moron. Gee Vic, so critical.. Just let it rest. Take a friggin' midolPMS or two. Ima "The good Lord ruined some perfectly good a.sholes when he put teeth in some peoples heads" >>>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>>>> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > "The good Lord ruined some perfectly good a.sholes > when he put teeth in some peoples heads" Gee Ima, so critical of my criticalness. Kind of silly. I don't get PMS, haven't for a decade. Next. >>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > complete with no instructions. Just toss it across the whole of the > vine like he does his peach trees. So that is what I did. You'll probably take this as more sarcastic criticism, but stories like this are why I'm not sure most people should be allowed to use other than a flyswatter as a pesticide. You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown chemical of unknown concentration, with no instructions, and you didn't know how to apply it. How do you know it was carbaryl, and not, say, Paris green? Or maybe one of the herbicides? Or flour? Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite you badly. This might be that. >>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven >>>> dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite you > badly. This might be that. Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific topic equally as hazardous or even more so. >Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of >bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are >equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific >topic equally as hazardous or even more so. It would seem an almost unanimous decision and opinion here that you chuck the grapes you applied a very toxic poison to. Sevin is advertised using lies, lies and more lies and people have been gardening for decades, some professionally, some avidly, some used to use these pesticides who no longer use them because they found out the truth about them over the years. Constructive as I can be without crawling on my hands and knees begging: Do NOT use these tainted grapes. Chalk it up to a big mistake, period. >> Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of >> bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Do NOT use these tainted grapes. Chalk it up to a big mistake, > period. Yes, it's all a conspiracy. They are out to get us. Sherwin >>> Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of >>> bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Yes, it's all a conspiracy. They are out to get us. mostly your money. they certainly don't care if the food is safe to eat or if the product poisons water or soil. profit is the sole motive. if you choose to give them more profit, that's your business, but keep your nasty poisoned food away (far away) from me & my farm. thanks. lee SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. >>> Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of >>> bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Sherwin Who is "they??" >>>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven >>>>> dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific > topic equally as hazardous or even more so. I did, Dippy, in my first post. If you're going to use a pesticide, make sure you follow the label directions. No label. Mason jar. This is playing chemical Russian Roulette. And it's a violation of US federal law. And if this wasn't in the US, then it's likely to have violated the laws of most other countries. Not to mention the law of common sense: you don't keep toxic materials in a food container. Especially not an unlabeled food container. Learn from your mistakes. If you can. > >>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven > >>>> dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific > topic equally as hazardous or even more so. You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too defensive atm to see it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a crop, 1. Make sure it has a label 2. Read the label, so you know the concentration, 3. Read the instructions, so that you: 4. Know how to apply it. Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your lumps because you deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know better." Don't whinge about it. The world won't always be a touch-feely warm little place where someone can make everything ok. Chris > On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > <some...@anywhere.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > better." Don't whinge > about it. Please tell me HOW I screwed up by advising the OP to: 1) talk to the folks at Virginia Tech and possibly submit a sample for their lab to analyze 2) talk to his county agriculture agent and or to 3) get information from the manufacturer. Some county agriculture agencies have programs for certification and education on the use of pesticides and fungicides. My advice was to get the FACTS and was NOT based on some knee jerk reaction like those you expouse. > The world won't always be a > touch-feely warm little place where someone can > make everything ok. > > Chris > > On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > > <some...@anywhere.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > > Chris My mistake. I should have written that to the original poster. You provided sound advice. Sorry for the mixup. Chris >> >>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven >> >>>> dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Chris OK.. You're 100% correct. I goofed - f'd up - etc. Checking with the fellow who gave me the dust - Sevin-5%. Being is he is 85 yo and farmed all his life, when he said to toss the stuff, I did as he suggested. I have written to gardentech.com ( the makers of Sevin-5 ) and am waiting for a reply. I checked with my neighbor who uses the stuff and read the instructions on the back and of course it said to use appropriet dispenser. It also said that the preharvest interval was 7 days for grapes. Looking through www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp Q : How does Sevin control insects? A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment. I know, I know now - day late an' a buck short... I should have done the necessary reading ahead of time etc. And I should have told Mr Red " Just toss it on - are you crazy ol' man! - do you know how them posters will growl if I don't take all precautions and need advice because I didn't follow instructions and protocol..." I've used newsgroups in one form or other since DEC-NOTES. I can honestly say that I never did pick apart everything a poster wrote that I found fault with. If I couldn't offer some form of suggestion or help, I move on to the next post. And then I remember the flame wars that started taking place - people who just loved to tear everything apart and find fault. Mispelled words, improper grammar, you name it - not having a damned thing to do with the posters original query. Pre-spam spammers. But it's ok. Take what I need - leave the rest. And I am not referring to your own reply, there was useful input offered. Thank you - it will help in the future - but really did not focus on my query - grapes good or bad now that I f'd up. = Paul = >>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > = Paul = Sheesh.....besides poisoning our world, you are too effing careless to effectively use even a sockpuppet, Ima Paul Dudley Goodguy. I'm sure as hell glad you aren't my neighbor, Poisoner of Bees, Spiders, Butterflies and Other Helpful and Harmless Living Creatures.....such as your Neighbors!! Charlie >>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven >>>> dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Charlie Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice or join the ranks of the "holier than thou" For example, there are a LOT of bee keepers who use chemicals every bit as risky as the OP used. Has ANY one of you doom and gloomers ever given the advice such as CONTACT YOUR LOCAL AGRICULTURE EXTENSION AGENT and ask for THEIR advice and opinion. Of course not. You have your own agenda. >Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice or >join the ranks of the "holier than thou" Yawn...OK, I will...join the ranks of the holier than thou, that is. And sorry to say, Paul, I'll post as I see fit, according to my "agenda" and not according to your demands. I also intend to keep my life and help my grandchildren keep theirs by doing what I can to keep morons from contaminating their food with poison. >For >example, there are a LOT of bee keepers who use >chemicals every bit as risky as the OP used. Golly, I guess that makes it just hunky-dory okie-dokie to spread poison about the planet. Thanks for the heads up and the excellant argument justifying the use of such, Paul. Tell me, how do you feel about irradiated food? :-) I gots me all sorts of them kinds of questions I would like to ponder you head with, but I thinks I gots yer number already, son. ;-) >Has ANY one of you doom and gloomers ever given >the advice such as CONTACT YOUR LOCAL >AGRICULTURE EXTENSION AGENT and ask for THEIR >advice and opinion. "I'm from the gummint and I am here to help you".....uh huh, oh yeah! They do have some good plans for hogsheds, though. This statement of yours shows your lack of understanding or care about such things as three-legged frogs and declining bird populations and cancers and all sorts of funky sh.t that is happening on account of, well, you know. But I didn't get this information from monsatano or dow or bayer or any of their front guys, like the usda and fda and....so I guess it is just doom and gloom bullshit. >Of course not. You have >your own agenda. Yep, that agenda being the speaking out about the use of toxins that contribute to the toxically over-burdened planet and that contribute to the bodily toxic load we and our children and grandchildren must suffer on account of the ignorance and greed of people such as yourself and the sockpuppet and all the minions of the agrochemical cartel who advocate the use of toxins. Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? Doom, Doom, Doom....can you hear the drums, Paul? Charlie "You just caught me on a good night. I'm doing what I was made to do - and I've got a feeling I'm going to do it even better this time" - Captain Billy Tyne > Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of ground water. The same function that tea served in the East. Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is). You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that this doesn't happen again. SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related >> Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that > this doesn't happen again. I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start another flame war ) now do. But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't start the world whining again ). I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their reply. = Paul = > >> Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > = Paul = > Sulfur candles were used before there was a written language. As luck would have it, SO2 is heavier than air. Sulfur wicks are still used to burn in barrels before they are stored empty although the trend is towards compressed gas. SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related >> In article >> <04rc84phk0o76gpgplkh10ifqpgr3ne822@4ax.com>, [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > = Paul = Paul, since you are making wine I offer the following information. "Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health - depending on the wine makers practices. For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML bacteria are not used then the probability of the formation of carcinogens is enhanced. Here is a post I contributed to the wine making news group: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I always look for articles indicating positive health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there are many. I recently came across an article in "Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy with the heading of "Human health concerns associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98). The partial information I summarize below is NOT an attempt to start religious wars over technique or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that we as wine makers/growers should know. Personally, I believe there are "probably" more health related issues in a can of soda than some of the material discussed below but perhaps we can make better wine if we are aware of some of these facts. Summary and quotes: "From a winemaking perspective, there are two types of compounds produced by wine microbes that have health implications for the consumer: biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate. Biogenic amines have been shown to cause negative physiological effects in allergic humans (such as headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl carbamate is considered to be a probably carcinogen to humans. The probable carcinogenic properties of ethyl carbamate are based on studies with experimental animals, there is not direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans." "The concentration and type of biogenic amines vary greatly in wines; however, generally red wines contain significantly more than white wines. In addition, there appears to be a direct correlation between elevated biogenic amines in wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic fermentation." Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen, it is becoming the focus of international regulation, and so its formation must be managed properly both in the vineyard and during the winemaking process." "Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea produced from wine yeast is thought to be the major precursor." Factors that affect formation "Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host of factors can influence the formation of biogenic amines including: 1) initial microbial populations present on grapes; 2) presence of precursor amino acids in grape juice; 3) ageing of wine on wither yeast lees (sur lie ageing) or lees following malolactic fermentation; 4) extended grape maceration; 5) spontaneous malolactic fermentation by indigenous lactic acid bacteria; 6) number of lactic acid bacteria that are decarboxylase-positive: 7) wine pH; 8) concentration of sulfur dioxide (SO2) following malolactic fermentation and during ageing; 9) winery sanitation practices; 10) yeast strain; and 11) fining practices (fining white wines with bentonite may remove biogenic amines). Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for biogenic amine formation during the winemaking process. Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the following factors: 1) argine content of grapes; 2) concentration of ethanol; 3) nutrient additions to must, during both alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons; 4) yeast straiin; 5) spontaneous malolactid fermentaion by indigenous lactic acid bacteria; 6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing); 7) temperature of iwne during ageing and shipment; 8) duration of wine ageing; 9) wine pH; and 10) wineery sanitation practices." "Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate Biogenic Amines if possible periodically monitor microbial populations on grapes to determine risk for biogenic amine producers. if possible, assess concentration of primary precursor amino acids in grapes and must. avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity. Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or malolactic lees. Try to minimize extended grape maceration. Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry. Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and Pediococcus. When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to remove the natural lactic acid bacteria. Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria. Maintan good sanitation practices during wine production. Ethyl Carbamate Avoid argine content of > 1000 mg/L in juice. Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of vineyards. Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and soil. Test nitrogen status of juice. Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do not add urea. Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that are known to produce low levels of urea (Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice has a high arginine content. Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing), which can liberate amino acids and proteins. Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not have ability to produce high levels of citrulline. Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and shipment of wine. If wines are going to be aged for an extendd period of time, it is advisable to periodically monitor ethyl carbamate levels. Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and Pedioccus. Immediately following malolactic fermentation and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria. Maintain good sanitation practices during wine production." I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the resources to monitor all of the above but we can control a good amount of them. I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to pick up a copy of the magazine. There are 23 references cited at the end of the article. I did not quote the article in the entirety but tried to summarize the main points. Paul > >> In article > >> <04rc84phk0o76gpgplkh10ifqpgr3ne822@4ax.com>, [quoted text clipped - 275 lines] > > Paul Interesting article, however I suggest you check with http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/ecintro.html and download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative Action Manual: English Language Version, PDF format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying to spice up a story. S U M M A R Y Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the vineyard. Monitor soil nitrogen status. Monitor vine nitrogen status. Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil nitrogen status is already high. Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly with different cultivars and especially rootstocks. Monitor juice nitrogen status. Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements. Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely. Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement. Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000 mg/L. When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid those with high urea excretion characteristics. Use malo-lactic bacteria with known characteristics. Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot completely eliminate EC formation. Be aware that must fortification may aggravate the problem of urea excretion by yeast. Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit. Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures during storage and transport SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related > In article > <K_mdnXFNc6_W_xrVnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@comcast.com>, > >> >> In article <04rc84phk0o76gpgplkh10ifqpgr3ne822@4ax.com>, >> >>> Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced >> >>> before the advent of carbaryl? [quoted text clipped - 335 lines] > Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures > during storage and transport All of the above true but does not detract or counter what I have posted. > All of the above true but does not detract or > counter what I have posted. No it doesn't ;o) SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related >>Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice >>or join the ranks of the "holier than thou" [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > - > Captain > Billy > Tyne Charlie I gave the OP advice on how to obtain the answer to his question - NOT - NOT I repeat my personal opinion. To summarize I have said: 1) Contact the manufacturer. If they say it is safe that does not mean that one should stop there. If they say chuck the grapes then by all means do it. 2) I suggested calling the viticulture experts at Virginia tech and or making the wine and sending them a sample for testing. 3) Contacting the OP's local agriculture extension agent. YOU have given YOUR personal opinion based on nothing but sh.t house rumors and NOT science. >YOU have given YOUR personal opinion based on >nothing but sh.t house rumors and NOT science. Do you really believe that, Paul? Your stating this does not make it a fact. Lay off the koolaid, son. Guess it boils down to who is paying for the "science" and who controls the dissemination of said "scientific" results? Cui bono? Charlie "Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say." ~~William W. Watt >Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice or >join the ranks of the "holier than thou" For [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >advice and opinion. Of course not. You have >your own agenda. You mean the Land Grant Universities who are paid by Monsanto, Dow Elanco and Bayer to "test" and evaluate their latest carcinogens? NOT. >> Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice or >> join the ranks of the "holier than thou" For [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You mean the Land Grant Universities who are paid by Monsanto, Dow > Elanco and Bayer to "test" and evaluate their latest carcinogens? NOT. Yep, they are all out to get us. Sherwin >>> Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice or >>> join the ranks of the "holier than thou" For [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Sherwin No, just out to get the money to fund their bullshit. >>>> Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >>>> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Charlie A good friend of mine raises bees on his urban property (fairly small) and has been spraying chemicals (wisely) for years. The bees don's seem to mind. Sherwin >> �Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >> due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Didn't you read the directions... that's the dumbest method for > applying Sevin. I know people who apply Sevin that way. They do it because it is simpler than mixing up a batch for the sprayer. This is practical when you have a small plant or area to treat. Does it say on the label that applying the poweder is dangerous? Sherwin > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). > I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole > of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still Hm. Maybe next time you'll read and follow the label directions? As far as the half life of Sevin (not seven): http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/carbaryl.htm Note that carbaryl is bound by organic matter. Personally, I wouldn't touch these grapes. > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Paul Ok.. My neighbor uses Sevin dust all the time and swears by it. I just paid her a visit to see if she had any and she has a bag of GardenTech Sevin-5 - Ready to use 5% dust. Reading the instructions on the back shows that the preharvest interval (number of days between last application and harvest) for grapes is 7 days. I will find out what brand/strength was given to me. In the meantime I will write to GardenTech to see what they have to say and will post their advice. = Paul = > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Paul I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things have really gotten totally blown out of proportion. I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for grapes. According to them: Q : How does Sevin control insects? A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment. ( http://www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp#11G ) And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation. Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many. And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism. As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will correct my ways. Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide, herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And chemical fertilizers, no way. I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields. It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops. And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought veggies, but one never knows for sure. I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on. To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input. If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering ( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5 years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8 inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length. Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when semi dry. Not sure what else to add ). = Paul = > > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine > > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > = Paul = Basic premise I learned from the early things like VAX notes. With these electronic communications best practice is to assume you are writing to your best friend. Some of my friends are idiots and some are not. Discerning which is which is too much for me who just likes to rub or bend elbows on occasion. Still if I detect offensive I yield and help the other go by. Chinese phi lo stuff. Perhaps with a little help push :)) Bill SignatureGarden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA >> > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine >> > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > Bill Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits. Jus' thought I'd ask... = Paul = > Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the > Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > = Paul = At one time in the VAX heyday I could walk down a hall and see a expert in computer science. This In a large company from Delaware. My boss told me to take care of making sure folks about the world had access to RS1. Seems RS1 needed a $. So I was able to grant access to many folks and I pointed out that LYNX was available at the $. Lynx = pre graphical interface to the internet. Mexican engineers flipped out in a joyous manner. Those DEC folks with physicists about did a great job in removing their need to be around. SAD. I ran two international newsletters until my boss¹s boss¹s etc bragged then a VP of the company said ³What² shut me down as I was just the lowest level employee. I know what ALL-IN-one is don¹t miss it ;)). Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell? Hope the heart is treating you well I know what CABG is. Bill SignatureGarden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA >> Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the >> Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Bill I remember lynx very well. In fact I just had to use it the other day ( I use Slackware Linux. I was logged in under my own username the other day and needed to pull up an html file I had on my W2k partition. Instead of logging off and then logging in as root, I just pulled up a terminal window, went to superuser and pulled the file up in lynx ). Lynx was my first web experience - no more BBS's, no more gopher, or archie etc. The web was here and DEC had two gateways to the internet. I couldn't wait to get home to my vt100 and dial in my 300bps modem, fire up lynx and see what was out there.. ( although most web sites at the time were computer related in nature and content. Not much else ). And "$" command prompt. My handle was "sys$shrink". Reminds me of a time when I shutdown what I thought was my own system when I heard beeping going off all over the place and quickly realized I was logged into a cluster node instead... Shutdown the whole cluster.. I hid under a table.... @sys$system:shutdown .... >>> ( ... boot prompt ). > Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell? Not familiar. Were they engineers ? = Paul = " Those were the days ... ( sigh ).. ." > > Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yes they were both engineers and we visited each other¹s homes in the day. Best Bill SignatureGarden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes > when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so. Paul, don't waste your time with Sevin dust. I recently learned it's been used so much and for so long the bugs have immunity to it. I believe it because it did nothing to help control whitefly and spider mites. Water spraying just increases your water bill because to knock off insect eggs etc. the force needed would seriously damage the leaves and the adults are back on the plants before you can turn the water off. This is the first year we don't have Japanese Beetles, probably because the whitefly and mites took over the gardens. > Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine > due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Paul OK .. I said I would put this post to rest due to so much controversy but I also told someone I would post any reply from the makers of Sevin-5, so here 'tis: Mr. Dudley, Thanks for your question. Sevin is not systemic. Once Sevin has been applied, it remains effective on plants up to 7 days or until rain or overhead watering. The white material you see is the residue, which contains no active ingredients or chemicals. Water breaks the carbaryl down immediately. You might try to use a produce wash that can be found in most grocery stores. This may help remove some of the residue. Hope this helps! Have a nice day, J------ R------ * ( name withheld ) Consumer Product Repr |
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