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Steer compost in garden

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Zootal - 17 Jul 2008 20:36 GMT
There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
heap it on the ground around plants and trees?
Zootal - 17 Jul 2008 22:01 GMT
I have a truckload of the stuff sitting out front. It looks like slightly
dried and aged steer manure, I'm not sure how much it's been "composted".
I'm guessing it might be a bit hot and should be used sparingly. Anyone have
experience with this stuff?

> There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
> compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
> heap it on the ground around plants and trees?
Bill - 17 Jul 2008 22:27 GMT
> I have a truckload of the stuff sitting out front. It looks like slightly
> dried and aged steer manure, I'm not sure how much it's been "composted".
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
> > heap it on the ground around plants and trees?

 Dump it into a pyramid  shaped pile.  Add two steer horns and cover
with a tarp.  Remove in 3 .3 decades and spread it about . The horns
should be filled with sand.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner>

Na just spread the sh.t about. You seem to be well on your way.

Bill who has a horn in water in my basement for about 30 years.

Signature

Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Billy - 18 Jul 2008 02:08 GMT
> I have a truckload of the stuff sitting out front. It looks like slightly
> dried and aged steer manure, I'm not sure how much it's been "composted".
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
> > heap it on the ground around plants and trees?

Take a look at
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/foodnut/09369.html
You probably don't want to use it on anything that you'll be harvesting
in the next three months, if it hasn't been commercially composted, i.e.
done in very large lots to generate the heat needed to kill pathogens.
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

FarmI - 18 Jul 2008 03:21 GMT
"Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-

>> I have a truckload of the stuff sitting out front. It looks like slightly
>> dried and aged steer manure, I'm not sure how much it's been "composted".
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> in the next three months, if it hasn't been commercially composted, i.e.
> done in very large lots to generate the heat needed to kill pathogens.

Sunlight and soil biota are also good destroyers of pathogens.
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/publicconcerns/cwa01s11.html
Billy - 18 Jul 2008 06:21 GMT
In article
<487ffe45$0$29851$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,

> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
> >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Sunlight and soil biota are also good destroyers of pathogens.
> http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/publicconcerns/cwa01s11.html 

If given 3 - 4 months of warm summer days ;-)
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Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

Billy - 17 Jul 2008 22:17 GMT
> There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
> compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
> heap it on the ground around plants and trees?

Manure should be at least six months old before use. By mushroom
compost, do you mean the medium that the mushrooms grow in? If so, that
is probably horse manure and was sterilized before it was used for
mushrooms (good to go). These are fertilizers, if I read you properly, a
source of nitrogen for the plants, not what gardeners usually think of
as mulch, which is usually worm food.

Like mulch, leave six foot radius around the tree clear, if you plan to
feed them. Most plants could do well with a side dressing about now.
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

Zootal - 17 Jul 2008 22:20 GMT
>> There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
>> compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Like mulch, leave six foot radius around the tree clear, if you plan to
> feed them. Most plants could do well with a side dressing about now.

It is aged, you can tell by looking at it, but there is no telling how long
it was aged. It has a fairly pleasant odor (for manure, that is) which would
indicate some aging. I think I'll go sparingly just in case...hate to fry my
plants with hot manure.
Zootal - 17 Jul 2008 22:21 GMT
>> There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
>> compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Like mulch, leave six foot radius around the tree clear, if you plan to
> feed them. Most plants could do well with a side dressing about now.

PS - it's definitely not mulch. This is plain old somewhat aged cow poop.
FarmI - 18 Jul 2008 03:07 GMT
"Zootal" <giganews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message
> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> PS - it's definitely not mulch. This is plain old somewhat aged cow poop.

Then use it now and dont' let the nutrients escape into the ground in a non
useful place.  Don't put it around the base of lettuce or parsley but
anything that will be harvested from above the level of the poop will love
it as will your worms.
FarmI - 18 Jul 2008 03:04 GMT
"Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message

>> There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
>> compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
>> heap it on the ground around plants and trees?
>
> Manure should be at least six months old before use.

I disagree strongly with this.  I use manure pretty fresh and always have.
It just depends on where you use it.

I think that the taboos about manure stem from old books (mostly from
Europe) which all talk about "aged manure".  I suspect that most people
believe that without ever having tried it really fresh.
David Hare-Scott - 18 Jul 2008 04:59 GMT
> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Europe) which all talk about "aged manure".  I suspect that most people
> believe that without ever having tried it really fresh.

I agree.  I live in the midst of cattle country and we run horses as well.
Manure from either can be used within a few weeks of date of plop when it has
dried somewhat.

Manure from birds (chickens, turkeys etc) is another matter altogether as the
content of nutrients is much higher.  It must be diluted and/or composted
and/or aged before use.  I prefer diluting and composting in with other plant
material as these help to retain the nutrients as just leaving it lying in a
heap will allow the soluble nutrients (especially nitrogen compounds) to leach
away.  This usually results in great growth of grass downslope from the pile
which may not be what you want.

As for the neccesity of hot composting and sterilizing I think the risk of
picking up a pathogen from the manure of a herbivore is greatly over
estimated.  Sure there are E.Coli and other pathogens that can live in humans
in their guts but we all live in a microbiological soup.  The air, the water
and every object we touch is covered in microbes by the gazillion.  Living
isn't something you can do sterile.

There are a great many people in the western world who live in big cities who
are horrified at the thought of anything that has come out of the arse of a
living creature.  [I always knew that a boiled egg is the work of the devil]
I have had people ask me "where do the horses go to the bathroom?"  When I
replied "where ever they please" they were horrified.

You have only to look at the vast market for fancy surface cleansers, coloured
stuff to put down your toilet etc, most of which is entirely pointless, to see
how this fear is reinforced by vested interests.  Much of this squeamishness
is based on the fear that one spot of fecal matter on ones skin will
automatically result in an illness.  You wash before eating don't you?  You
have an immune system don't you?  But you are a bad parent whose children
ought be taken away if your whole bathroom isn't sprayed with Zeppo Ultraclean
daily.

I would say changing the dirty nappy of an infant is far more dangerous (not
to mention unpleasant) than spreading barrows full of not fully composted cow
manure.

David
Dioclese - 18 Jul 2008 12:15 GMT
>> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> David

Kinda confusing, the FDA and other naysayers of animal poop.  The last
tainted spinach thing, that found the couple of rows where it was located in
a farm in California.  Uphill from there, cattle graze.  They heavily
implied the cow manure during heavy rain was the culprit.  But, didn't come
out and say it was for sure.  Seems more rhetoric and guessing, than science
to me.
Signature

Dave

Bailout: Friend, relative, business acquaintance
paying a sum to get the accused
out of jail until court is ready to proceed.

Bailout: U.S. taxpayers paying a sum  of
money for some critical business failure
that was fleecing the taxpayer to begin
with.
Somehow, the word "bailout" seems
very different.

Billy - 18 Jul 2008 16:48 GMT
> >> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> out and say it was for sure.  Seems more rhetoric and guessing, than science
> to me.

A surmise perhaps, but not without foundation or precedent.
http://www.csiss.org/classics/content/8
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

Bill - 18 Jul 2008 17:17 GMT
In article
<wildbilly-291B66.08482618072008@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au>,

> http://www.csiss.org/classics/content/8

Keep the feces out of the water.  Feces on the land that is breaking
down not the problem.  I have had many tons of chicken  feces spread
about here in the past along with with wood chip it sort of invites a
vitality.  I would not like it in my water supply .
So what is the problem?  Perhaps long times of produce sitting about
and driven a few thousand miles.  The labels in my supermarket suggest
when to sell by but  not when they arrived.  Then misted to suggest
fresh.

Bill

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Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Dioclese - 20 Jul 2008 14:53 GMT
My conclusion is that the FDA simply does not really know the actual source
of E-coli in recent grocery produce problems.  And, they will probably never
will now, or, in such future outbreaks.

Commonly, the workers in the grocery produce department place the newly
arrived stuff in the rear of the bin, the best they can.

Signature

Dave

Bailout: Friend, relative, business acquaintance
paying a sum to get the accused
out of jail until court is ready to proceed.

Bailout: U.S. taxpayers paying a sum  of
money for some critical business failure
that was fleecing the taxpayer to begin
with.
Somehow, the word "bailout" seems
very different.

> In article
> <wildbilly-291B66.08482618072008@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au>,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Bill
FarmI - 19 Jul 2008 08:17 GMT
"Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
>> "David Hare-Scott" <compost@rotting.com> wrote in message
>> > "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> A surmise perhaps, but not without foundation or precedent.
> http://www.csiss.org/classics/content/8

????  I must have missed any reference to humanure in the garden.  I
wouldn't recommend it even though the Chinese have done it for 40 centuries.
Billy - 19 Jul 2008 18:30 GMT
In article
<48819502$0$29832$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,

> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
> >> "David Hare-Scott" <compost@rotting.com> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> ????  I must have missed any reference to humanure in the garden.  I
> wouldn't recommend it even though the Chinese have done it for 40 centuries.

Shirley (couldn't resist) you wouldn't drink water that was fresh
run-off from a cow pasture. We be talking sh.t here, I don't care what
animal it came out of. Don't try to obscure the issue with your wiley
Australian pas-de-deux.
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

FarmI - 21 Jul 2008 10:25 GMT
"Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
>> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-

>> > A surmise perhaps, but not without foundation or precedent.
>> > http://www.csiss.org/classics/content/8
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Shirley

Shirley, who the hell is Shirley?

(couldn't resist) you wouldn't drink water that was fresh
> run-off from a cow pasture. We be talking sh.t here, I don't care what
> animal it came out of.

Yep, we ARE talking sh.t here, but sh.t from cattle, not human sh.t.

I had assumed that as someone who continually tries to educate people to
follow the organic path, you would understand that plants like cattle sh.t 
and in fact all animal sh.t.  Human sh.t has no place in any domestic garden
and no-one suggested drinking cattle sh.t.

Don't try to obscure the issue with your wiley
> Australian pas-de-deux.

Well if by "Australian pas de deux" you mean that David and I are trying to
get you to discuss this topic using logic and/or experience, then I guess
I'd have to plead guilty.  It sure beats doing the Texas two step.

We were talking cow sh.t so why suddenly introduce the topic of human sh.t?
Billy - 21 Jul 2008 19:46 GMT
In article
<488455f0$0$20506$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,

> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
> >> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Shirley, who the hell is Shirley?

Fran, you don't mind me calling you Fran, do you? Good.
You don't keep up with cutting edge of American culture?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3rXK7NhWN8 explains all.
Maybe I should have said Shelia but that doesn't have any resonance here.

> (couldn't resist) you wouldn't drink water that was fresh
> > run-off from a cow pasture. We be talking sh.t here, I don't care what
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and in fact all animal sh.t.  Human sh.t has no place in any domestic garden
> and no-one suggested drinking cattle sh.t.

Oh goodie, your back ;o) and brought your muscle with you:o( I was
beginning to think that you had one too many Fosters and had gone to the
waller for a nice lie down, now I find you've been prattling on about
taxonomy (let's keep it to Chordata Tetrapoda), while I was talking
about "enteric bacteria - rod-shaped Gram-negative bacteria; most occur
normally or pathogenically in intestines of humans and other animals."
The operative word here is
"pathogenically".

I'm sure that plants do like doo, unless it's too much doo and fries
them.

My point is, my painfully obtuse friend, is that the ingestion of
green doo (be it sipped or chewed) may lead to predictable and avoidable
consequences (you get sick). You should avoid root crops in conjunction
with green doo. Leafy vegetables could be contaminated by rain splashing
doo onto the plant, so either mulch them to eliminate splashing or don't
grow them. Fruiting crops are probably safe; train any vining ones such
as cucumbers or tomatoes onto a support so that the fruit is off the
ground. Thoroughly wash any produce from the garden before eating it.
Or you could just use aged manure and save yourself the trouble of the
doo dos and the doo don'ts.
Or you could doo it Bush's way and just irradiate it, doo and all,
(yumm, yumm) and that would be the end of the problem (they say).

> Don't try to obscure the issue with your wiley
> > Australian pas-de-deux.
>
> Well if by "Australian pas de deux" you mean that David and I are trying to
> get you to discuss this topic using logic and/or experience, then I guess
> I'd have to plead guilty.  It sure beats doing the Texas two step.
Ah, you haven't lived until you've tried "Country Swing".

> We were talking cow sh.t so why suddenly introduce the topic of human sh.t?

To put a finer point on it, I was stressing (1) the FACT that feces is
a source for pathogenic organisms (see definition above) and (2) this
concern abates after three to four months of dry warmth and sunshine.
See:
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/publicconcerns/cwa01s11.html

If you would simply engage that dormant organ under your hat, these
conversations would go more quickly ;o))
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

FarmI - 22 Jul 2008 05:45 GMT
"Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
>> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
>> >> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Fran, you don't mind me calling you Fran, do you? Good.

No I don't mind at all.

> You don't keep up with cutting edge of American culture?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3rXK7NhWN8 explains all.

I hope you had your tongue firmly in your cheek when you called that
"cutting edge" because if you didn't, then I'd hate to see what you include
in your "dumb crap" category.

> Maybe I should have said Shelia but that doesn't have any resonance here.

But you think your reference to "Shirley" does have resonance?  That is both
jingoistic and arrogant on your part given the universal access to
newsgroups.

>> (couldn't resist) you wouldn't drink water that was fresh
>> > run-off from a cow pasture. We be talking sh.t here, I don't care what
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> The operative word here is
> "pathogenically".

Do you ever attempt to stay on topic or attempt to post from a basis of
either logic or relevance?  Your obsession with alcohol and your irrelevant
and illogical imaginings about other's drinking habits has nothing to do
with the topic or the thread.  My nationality also has nothing to do with
the discussion, however your attempts to use that as a form of insult is
duly noted.

This group is called rec.gardens.  The question originally asked was:
"There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
heap it on the ground around plants and trees?"

If you had bothered to read the question with any degree of comprehension
you would have noticed 2 things: the use of the words "compost" and "around
plants and trees".

The one and only answer to this question is the one I originally gave.  That
answer is "yes".

You chose to answer that manure should be six months old before use.  I know
from long experience, as clearly does David, that such ageing is not
necessary and in my case I know that even applies for fresh poultry manure.
It depends on where it is spread.

But back to the current twist in his thread. Of course animal manure has
pathogens in it.  But so does soil.  So does water and potting mix.  I even
provided a post that cited that water retains pathogens longer than manure.
If you bothered to spend even a nonosecond thinking about the implications
of water borne pathogens then you would be advocating that we don't use
water in the garden.

You aren't advocating that, and you would sound like a total idiot if you
did.  However, that does not mean that you aren't being a patronising idiot
in dribbling on continuously about pathogens.  If you bothered to pay
attention to what other's have written, you would realise that we already
know about pathogens in our gardening environment.  Note the use of the word
"gardening".  That does not include the lack of sewers in 19th century
Britain.

The discussion here started, and should have remained, about manure used in
gardens.  If you bothered to stay on topic and not ramble in a free
association way, you might be able to figure that out.  Now you are forced
to try to justify your irrelevant introduction of the British cholera
outbreaks of the 19th cenury and choose to do that by trying to be
insulting.

Stay on topic.  Stick to the pathogens found in manures used in gardens.
That does not include human, dog, cat, pig or many other manures.

> I'm sure that plants do like doo, unless it's too much doo and fries
> them.

Lord spare me!  That is complete rubbish!  Just how many plants have you
ever managed to fry with fresh poo?  I've yet to use any manure that has
ever fried any plant and that includes fresh poultry manure.  In your
keeness to sound knowledgable on this topic, you fail (as usual) to believe
that anyone has a even a modicum of common sense.

A very raw beginner might fry something if they planted straight into fresh
manure, but no-one with even a soupcon of gardening experience would manage
to do that.

> My point is, my painfully obtuse friend, is that the ingestion of
> green doo (be it sipped or chewed) may lead to predictable and avoidable
> consequences (you get sick).

And you, my obtuse non friend, should learn to read for comprehension.  I
know you like to pontificate but your repeated posts indicate that you
aren't following the discussion with any degree of attention. If you weren't
always so keen to grandstand and show off, you might actually make some
sense more often.

You should avoid root crops in conjunction
> with green doo. Leafy vegetables could be contaminated by rain splashing
> doo onto the plant, so either mulch them to eliminate splashing or don't
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Or you could doo it Bush's way and just irradiate it, doo and all,
> (yumm, yumm) and that would be the end of the problem (they say).

This ramble is further indication that you are responding to something in
your own head rather than what has so far been covered in this thread.  Do
try to pay more attention to what is written, not what you think has been
written.

>> Don't try to obscure the issue with your wiley
>> > Australian pas-de-deux.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> See:
> http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/publicconcerns/cwa01s11.html

Are you trying to prove that you are stupid or are you really just not
paying attention?  Why refer me to a cite that I provided in the first
place?  I was the one who posted that cite on the 18th of July.  I read it
and digested it before you did and I posted it in response to a cite you
gave about the most nasty but rare form of E. coli.  Most forms of E. coli
are harmless but that one is not.

> If you would simply engage that dormant organ under your hat, these
> conversations would go more quickly ;o))

And no doubt you think that your continued grandstanding and opinion on
everything even if not backed up by knowledge or experience is helpful.  At
least you have some amusement value I suppose.
Billy - 22 Jul 2008 07:28 GMT
In article
<488565db$0$20529$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,

> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
> >> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 169 lines]
> everything even if not backed up by knowledge or experience is helpful.  At
> least you have some amusement value I suppose.

And I hope that no one gets sick or worse because of your advice.
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

FarmI - 22 Jul 2008 12:36 GMT
"Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
>> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
>> >> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 203 lines]
>
> And I hope that no one gets sick or worse because of your advice.

For crying out loud!  Do pay more attention.

I have already given advice in this very thread that whilst the OP can use
the steer crap, it shouldn't be used on lettuce or parsley.  I just
reiterated above that we all know that manures have pathogens.  If people
can't read this thread and can't figure out by now that manure contains
pathogens (as does soil, water and potting mix) and are so ignorant that
they can't figure out for themselves that they can just as easily become ill
stacking the stuff as you advise as they can from spreading it as I
recommend then they must be as sharp as frog spawn and would probably cut
off their own foot with a spade and consequently bleed to death if let loose
without supervision.
Billy - 22 Jul 2008 17:14 GMT
In article
<4885c65c$0$20538$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,

> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message

At some point this dialog went from a discussion to a humorless
harangue. G'day.
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

FarmI - 19 Jul 2008 08:23 GMT
>>> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
>>> >
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> come out and say it was for sure.  Seems more rhetoric and guessing, than
> science to me.

That incidence, and another involving lettuce in California, involved on
very particularly nasty form of E. coli (viz 0157:H7).  There are many
varieties of E. coli.  The FDA would have to take the most cautious approach
they could without putting the fear of raging disease into the whole
populace.

There are many other forms of diseases we can pick up in a garden (or in
cafes or even from handles on shop doors).  I've had cellulitis from the
most minute rose prick you've ever seen.  My husband had cellulitis when
travelling in a tropical country without even getting any break in the skin.
It's all about taking sensible precautions without being fear ridden or we'd
never garden, own animals, go out of the house etc.
Billy - 18 Jul 2008 06:26 GMT
In article
<487ffa35$0$29859$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,

> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I disagree strongly with this.  I use manure pretty fresh and always have.
> It just depends on where you use it.

and how lucky you feel ;-)
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/publicconcerns/cwa01s11.html
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FarmI - 19 Jul 2008 07:57 GMT
"Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
>> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and how lucky you feel ;-)
> http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/publicconcerns/cwa01s11.html

Luck has nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned.  If you looked with
any degree of closeness at the chart on that site, you would never garden if
you were worried about either pathogens or luck.  That site says that Water
is a better place for survival of E. coli than manure.  No-one I know can
garden without water, and as David H-S says, the world is a dirty place.  If
ya number's up, it's up as far as I'm concerned and till it's up, I garden
and I haul fresh manure.
Billy - 19 Jul 2008 18:40 GMT
In article
<48819076$0$29831$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,

> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
> >> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> ya number's up, it's up as far as I'm concerned and till it's up, I garden
> and I haul fresh manure.

Right, friday night in Australia and what better amusement than a
kickin', gouging, bitin', knock-down, drag-out fight, eh? Fine, if you
want to load up your garden with fresh manure in the middle or the end
of the growing season, I wish you God's speed.
For anyone who doesn't need to tempt the Almighty for thrills, I suggest
that they keep their sh.t in a corner of their property, away from those
tasty little plants, for at least three months and preferably four.
By that time UV and micro critters should have rendered it healthy to
use. I never did consider caution a form of paranoia. But then, I'm
older than you;-)
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FarmI - 21 Jul 2008 10:24 GMT
"Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
>> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message news:wildbilly-
>> >> "Billy" <wildbilly@get_the.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Right, friday night in Australia and what better amusement than a
> kickin', gouging, bitin', knock-down, drag-out fight, eh?

What the.......?

Fine, if you
> want to load up your garden with fresh manure in the middle or the end
> of the growing season, I wish you God's speed.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> use. I never did consider caution a form of paranoia. But then, I'm
> older than you;-)

So how old do you think I am?  And what has that to do with the use of
animal poop?

However, if you are going to give such advice then I will provide an
alternative thought.  If people choose to keep their sh.t covered in a
corner than perhaps they might also be interested in thinking about and
finding out how "well rotted animal manure" is arrived at and what happens
to the nutrients to reach that stage.  I prefer to have the nutrients in my
garden and not in some corner somewhere.
paghat - 17 Jul 2008 22:46 GMT
> There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
> compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
> heap it on the ground around plants and trees?

STEER MANURE:

I like the look of steer manure because as a top-coating or mulch it's
inert so retards weeds but looks like rich loamy topsoil. If properly and
fully composted it will have a good earthy smell and is totally-totally
good stuff. If it smells poopy it's not so great, though still not likely
to be harmfully pathogenic though even the slightest risk of e-coli would
warn against using it if it smells poopy or rotten eggish.

MUSHROOM "COMPOST":

Mushroom compost isn't composted mushrooms but "spent mushroom substrate"
and whatever of the mushrooms is in it is usually not even fully
composted. It's usually "steamed" before shipped for garden use but is
frequently just not authentically a composted product. Because not fully
composted it CAN leech nitrogen from soil until it finishes breaking down,
though in general this isn't an issue as it is with bark, it has enough
nitrogen of its own to unleash some of it rather than draw out the
garden's.

Mushroom compost nutrient content is unpredictable because the content of
the spent substrate can be extremely varied. Typically it's a mixture of
such ingredients as straw, horse manure, chicken manure, peat, bark, and
lime. The lime can have effects on soil not planned for, many plants
declining due to alkalinity, far fewer plants loving alkalinity.  

Commercial compost workers have also been documented to suffer severe
respiratory disease from organic mushroom compost dust exposure. Garden
use would not have such a risk but it is wise to wear a mask during
application, and not use it in arid gardens where winds might stir up dust
and spores enough to effect lungs of pets or gardeners. Never apply it if
it's dried and powdery; wet it down to 50% moisture which makes it easier
to spread and nixes potentially dangerous dust.

If it stinks of ammonia or poo, that's cuz it's got raw sewage or manure,
bad, bad. All these caveats sound like it is invariably be rotten stuff
for the garden, but it's by and large okay, and mainly you have to
consider the issue of it having lime in it and it has to pass the stink
test and should smell more like autumn leaves than crap. If you're lucky,
the variety of content means it has the best array of micro-nutrients such
as manganese and iron and whatnot.

BARK:

Bark is terrible for sucking nitrogen out of soil. It's fine once it's
completely broken down and bark's a totally reasonable component of fully
composted product, but as chunks of bark uncomposted, the guarantee it
will subtract nigrogen from the soil has to be considered. A little bark
will encourage beneficial fungus and some shrubs such as vacciniums or
dogwoods really like the extra fungus; huckleberries in particular even
prefer the lowered nitrogen in favor of heightened fungus. For most
gardens it's a poor choice of mulch since depleting the nitrogen slows the
growth of most perennials and annuals. If there's reason to WANT the soil
to be poor for growing (because nothing will ever be planted there) then
these points won't matter.

My favorite of the three is definitely well-composted manure (steer or
dairy or chicken or zoo doo), the steer being generally cheapest and
having many positive points and very little against it.  Chicken manure
has twice as much nitrogen as does steer manure, and steer has more
nitrogen and potasium than dairy manure, but as a top-coating at least
it's all the same as it is fairly inert unless mixed up with soil at which
point manure composts feed the microorganisms that produce the nitrogen
and other nutrients.

-paghat the ratgirl
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David Hare-Scott - 18 Jul 2008 05:01 GMT
"paghat" <gardenSPAM-ME-NOT@paghat.com> wrote in message
news:gardenSPAM-ME-NOT-

> and steer has more
> nitrogen and potasium than dairy manure,

Why do you say that?  Do they have greatly different diets where you are?

David
Billy - 18 Jul 2008 06:52 GMT
> "paghat" <gardenSPAM-ME-NOT@paghat.com> wrote in message
> news:gardenSPAM-ME-NOT-
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> David

From chicken to zoo doo
http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm
David Hare-Scott - 20 Jul 2008 09:05 GMT
> > "paghat" <gardenSPAM-ME-NOT@paghat.com> wrote in message
> > news:gardenSPAM-ME-NOT-
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> From chicken to zoo doo
> http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm

The table in this is based on some other reference that I don't have but it
seems to me to make some assumptions about the diet of the animals.  It says
steer manure (I suppose they mean beef cattle rather than having some reason
to think that cow, heifer or bull manure is different from that of steers) has
more seeds than dairy cow.  This would only be so if they had different diets.
I am thinking this table is based on USA practice which includes much lot
feeding.  Here you will get dairy cattle on one paddock and beef on the next
with them both eating the same pasture.  Under those conditions I cannot think
why the manure would be very much different.  [As for those diary cows you
would think that a steady diet of paper would alter their output and it is in
fact so.]

It also seems to assume that "manure" includes bedding (ie straw etc that has
not been through the beast)  This makes a huge difference to composition
compared to the straight stuff.

I thought the bit that said "Washed dairy manure from healthy cows is just
about perfect for garden use" was interesting.  Who washes it?  What do they
do with the dirty water?  Where do they find the water and the time?  The mind
boggles.

David
cat daddy - 20 Jul 2008 14:08 GMT
> > > "paghat" <gardenSPAM-ME-NOT@paghat.com> wrote in message
> > > news:gardenSPAM-ME-NOT-
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> do with the dirty water?  Where do they find the water and the time?  The mind
> boggles.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/soil/msg0400570230287.html#

  "The big reason cow manure is lower in nitrogen is because it is diverted
into milk production..."

  "Most factory-type diaries do not use bedding; instead, they flush the
manure with water into holding ponds and let it separate. Manure from these
types of farms comes from the bottom of the ponds when they are drained."
[hence, "washed"]
Billy - 20 Jul 2008 16:51 GMT
> > > "paghat" <gardenSPAM-ME-NOT@paghat.com> wrote in message
> > > news:gardenSPAM-ME-NOT-
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> David

One boggle at a time. I looked at several tables and they all reflected
the same data, that steers produce more nitrogen compounds than
dairy cows. Why is left to conjecture, but diets seems a reasonable
guess.
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Bill - 20 Jul 2008 18:05 GMT
In article
<wildbilly-25FD16.08511820072008@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au>,

> > > > "paghat" <gardenSPAM-ME-NOT@paghat.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:gardenSPAM-ME-NOT-
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> dairy cows. Why is left to conjecture, but diets seems a reasonable
> guess.

Some where in all these feces there may be best procedure.

I don¹t know how to use the following table. Note the issue of time
frame.

<http://www.ohioagriculture.gov/oda3/Lepp/Forms/Lepp_3900-APPX%20C_TBL%20
6.pdf>

I think we are discussing available nitrogen.

<http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=available+nitroge
n&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8>

  Bill a guy that trucked it in covered it with leaves and tilled in
time.

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zxcvbob - 21 Jul 2008 16:38 GMT
> I thought the bit that said "Washed dairy manure from healthy cows is just
> about perfect for garden use" was interesting.  Who washes it?  What do they
> do with the dirty water?  Where do they find the water and the time?  The mind
> boggles.

I've had worse summer jobs...

Bob
FarmI - 18 Jul 2008 03:01 GMT
> There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
> compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
> heap it on the ground around plants and trees?

Yes.
Billy - 18 Jul 2008 06:34 GMT
In article
<487ff986$0$29827$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,

> > There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer
> > compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and
> > heap it on the ground around plants and trees?
>
> Yes.

With the caveat that contact (with root crops, lettuce or herbs),
splashing from rain, or dust from working the soil can transmit
pathogens to low lying fruit and, ultimately, to to you, even if you are
Australian. Ornamentals, fruit trees or, corn are no problem.
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Kathryn Selfe - 20 Jul 2008 22:10 GMT
mushroom compost is brilliant stuff, not only does it help the garde
and existing plants, you usually find your breakfast eash day a
well!!!!!!!!
in my experience you cannot get better as it is well rotted and prio
to being used for mushrooms all the harmful '   ' has been removed

kathryn

www.carreglefn-nurseries.co.uk'Zootal[_3_ Wrote:
> ;804590']There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compos
> and steer
> compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compos
> and
> heap it on the ground around plants and trees

--
Kathryn Selfe
 
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