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Salvaging - A Closer Look

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symplastless - 03 Jul 2008 04:39 GMT
So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
from - Texas  Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.

As the story goes with respect to the plight of the Koala, humans are
breaking too many connections too fast.  As a result many living things are
leaving this earth.  If this trend continues, only microscopic living things
will remain, and the circle of life will go back to beginning.  Dr. Alex L.
Shigo.  The

The plight of this partially blind koala [see picture here: #431
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/whatitis/fire.html ] is due to
ignorance of tree basics.  Koalas eat the leaves of only about six species
of Eucalyptus.  Man loved the koala's so much, he built his homes close to
the Eucalyptus Groves because he wanted to be close to them.  But, the
Eucalyptus Groves go up very fast and burn very hot.  So, out of the
ignorance of tree biology, man dug fire trenches.   In doing so, the trees
were injured below ground (woody and non-woody roots - for starters).  When
trees are threatened or injured - they do something - they respond.  Because
of the fire ditches to reduce the threat of fire and over development, most
of the leaves on the declining trees in the area tanned. Tanning is a
chemical process of combining phenol-based substances with proteins, and the
disruption of hydrogen bonds leaves the protein indigestible. In one sense
the hydrogen bonds, are held open by toothpicks.  The enzymes of the koala
would enter to digest the leaves.  Tanning is like, removing the toothpicks.
The animals ate and ate, but received little nutrition. Lots of moisture,
wet spot developed.  A spirochete similar to syphilis entered and was passed
along by mating. Many koalas died.  The good news is that development in the
area was not only stopped, but many developed areas will be returned to
their original state.

With that said, I think the treatment to once fertile forest, yes even in
Texas, such as Don Staples refers to as "SALVAGE AND RESTORATION" per his
website, is deforestation.  You cannot plant a forest.  Yes, I claim he is a
crook, to sell people removing everything remaining is restoration by means
of salvaging and leads to some sort of improvement of health of trees as
well as associates.  http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

I wondered what function wood would play in PROTECTING A FOREST containing
any species of trees.  So I read some publications that were peer-reviewed
in refereed journals.  The US FOREST SERVICE has a awesome library system.
The researchers are some of the finest in the world.  So I decided to
document these findings.  I prophesize that negative results will happen if
Don's salvaging plans are carried out.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/whatitis/index.html  I tried to
give page, paragraph and so forth where quotes can be found.

Please think.  There is no reason why you cannot think.  BTW, all parts of a
tree are born alive and trees only absorb water when the roots are growing.
This is the beginning of a response to a year of negative criticism from Don
Staples and company.  There has been a long time battle between Modern
Arboriculture and Old Arboriculture in Texas.

Signature

Do to the overwhelming amount a negative criticism by a few individuals on
this list, I am "only" willing to get into debate by way of email.  I have a
background in tree biology, my negative critics do not.  I am willing to
answer any questions you may have.  If I do not have the answer I know where
to get it, based on a thorough understanding of tree biology.  Contact me at
treeman@treedictionary.com   A good foundation for understanding trees,
associates and treatments, can be found here: www.shigoandtrees.com   Most
topics, correct planting, mulching, pruning and fertilization can be found
at www.treedictionary.com

Happy gardening!

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

D. Staples - 03 Jul 2008 06:16 GMT
> So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
> from - Texas  Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.
>
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
> Consulting Yard man
/home.ccil.org/~treedan
> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
> us that we are not the boss.
> Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
> that will give them understanding.

Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark beetles
had destroyed the stand?  Other than dissect the trees for what ever use you
would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the beetles?  Just
let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring the right of a land
owner to restore his land to production, other than brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool.  You pimp Shigo's work and use others
work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are educated in
forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on "dissection", Shigo
meters, and the rest of which you have not the slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court.  It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.
symplastless - 03 Jul 2008 14:15 GMT
>> So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
>> from - Texas  Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.

Tree Farming and Related Problems
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.
symplastless - 03 Jul 2008 14:42 GMT
> Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
> beetles had destroyed the stand?  Other than dissect the trees for what
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
> http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

Lets use a tornado as an disturbance and not bark beetles.
1 of 16
Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas, which I would assume is a forestry industry standard.
"Salvage and restoration. There comes a time when nature just does not
cooperate with the best of management efforts. At that time you may have to
salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different sales effort
for forest products. Usually, the sales material is damaged, dead, or dying.
Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and incomes low. But, best
to move the material, get it out of the way for future work. Take what
income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for planting the site."

I except the definition but I disagree that you can plant a forest and the
fact that you may have to remove what is left which in this case would be
the old growth conditions (Tionesta)

What tornados do not do, verses doing the following after a tornado.  In
other words what would removing wood from a tornado swath achieve -   I.e.,
not limited too but including -

The fallen wood will become symplastless, if not already and in contrast, a
symplastless tree or log includes a considerable number of living cells, as
much 35% of the biomass may be live fungal cells (Franklin, Shugart and
Harmon, 1987, pg  [Removing this unique feature.]

It's is documented that a large symplastless tree is not a wasted resource;
indeed, it continues to function as an important part of a terrestrial or
water system, either while remaining on the site at which it once grew, or
by becoming a structural part of an aquatic or marine habitat. Our aim is to
help anyone interested in perpetual forest productivity to understand the
importance of large, symplastless woody debris.  (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and
Franklin, 1988, pg 1par5).

[This unique feature will be removed.]

Fallen trees harbor a myriad of organisms, from bacteria and actinomycetes
to higher fungi.  Of these, only some of the fungi might be noticed by the
causal observer as mushrooms or bracket fungi.  These structures, however,
are merely the fruiting bodies produced by mold colonies within the log.
Many fungi fruit within the fallen tree, so they are seen only when the tree
is torn apart. Even when a fallen tree is torn apart, only a fraction of the
fungi present are noticed because the fruiting bodies of most appear only
for a small portion of the year.  The smaller organisms, not visible to the
unaided eye, are still important components of the system (Maser and Trappe,
1984, pg16-par 5).  [This unique feature will be removed]

The flow of plant and animal populations, air, water, and essential elements
between a fallen tree and its surroundings increases as decomposition
continues (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 12-par1).  [This unique feature will
be removed]

Fallen trees offer multitudes of both external and internal habitats that
change and yet persist through the decades.  One needs an understanding of
the synergistic affects of constant small changes within a persistent large
structure to appreciate the dynamics of a fallen tree and its function in an
ecosystem (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 17-par 1).  [This unique feature will
be removed]

The so called symplastless, still standing trees, yet damaged, still
continues to serve several natural functions important to many groups of
organisms of the once fertile forest or tree system.  ).  [This unique
feature will be removed]

Eventually the tree falls:  the wood is in contact with the soil, again
providing another unique ecological situation. Some species such as American
chestnut would have served ecological system survival duties for 50 years or
more if they were not removed (SHIGO, 1969).

As fallen trees progress from decay class I to class II, the scavengers are
replaced by competitors with the enzyme systems needed to decompose the more
complex compounds in wood. The fungi involved in this activity are often
mutually antagonistic, so that a given part of the tree may be occupied by
only one fungus that excludes others by physical or chemical means (Maser
and Trappe, 1984, pg27-par4).   (We call this altered area a niche - See
pg70 Modern Arboriculture)(See niche in our www.treedictionary.com -
Dictionary)  [This unique feature will be removed]

Note:  Bacteria are very small. They do big things (Shigo, 1999, #216 pg34)

Free-living bacteria in woody residues and soil wood fix 30-60% of the
nitrogen in the forest soil. In addition, 20% of soil nitrogen is stored in
these components (Harvey et al. 1987). Harmon et al. (1986) reported that
CWD accounted for as much as 45% of aboveground stores of organic matter.
Symplastless wood in terrestrial ecosystems is a primary location for fungal
colonization and often acts as refugia for mycorrhizal fungi during
ecosystem disturbance (Triska and Cromack 1979; Harmon et al. 1986; Caza
1993) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).

[This unique feature will be removed]

Franklin, et. al. (1987) pg 551 states - With the large array of organisms
present in the decaying log, it may be more "alive" than a living bole.  In
addition to being the habitat of decomposer organisms, symplastless trees
provide critical habitat for sheltering and feeding a variety of animal
species.  [This unique feature will be removed]

Symplastless and symplast containing trees are linked together in the living
machinery of a forest (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg25par1).
[This unique feature will be removed]

References:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/whatitis/references.html

end of 1 of 16

Signature

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and  www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

Don Staples - 03 Jul 2008 14:52 GMT
>> Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
>> beetles had destroyed the stand?  Other than dissect the trees for what
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> fact that you may have to remove what is left which in this case would be
> the old growth conditions (Tionesta)

You EXCEPT the definition?  You dumb a.s, what do you do with 500 dead trees
falling on an acre of land?  What use does a landowner have for a tinder box
of dead wood?
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
> that will give them understanding.
symplastless - 03 Jul 2008 23:39 GMT
>>> Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
>>> beetles had destroyed the stand?  Other than dissect the trees for what
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
> http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

LOL you really don't understand trees or their associates with respect to
their requirements.  You think wood is dead, I think you need to go to
school and study the ecological stages of trees and their associates before
you offer people advice on managing the ecological stages of trees.  What do
you do for a living?  You surely don't depend on your knowledge of trees to
support yourself.

Signature

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and  www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

D. Staples - 04 Jul 2008 00:42 GMT
Answer the questions, dumb a.s.
Dioclese - 04 Jul 2008 13:00 GMT
>>> Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
>>> beetles had destroyed the stand?  Other than dissect the trees for what
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> trees falling on an acre of land?  What use does a landowner have for a
> tinder box of dead wood?

Way I look at, its a matter of convenience for the landowner not to wait for
natural conditions for natural recovery in regards to commercial enterprise.

There's no reason for unused land not to follow natural conditions for
recovery.
Signature

Dave

New drilling sites for oil offshore and other
sensitive places.  Question is, will that oil
go here in the U.S., or someplace else for sale?

Billy - 04 Jul 2008 20:21 GMT
> Way I look at, its a matter of convenience for the landowner not to wait for
> natural conditions for natural recovery in regards to commercial enterprise.
>
> There's no reason for unused land not to follow natural conditions for
> recovery.

Does that mean strip cutting the forest, removal of all habitat and
leaving the ground subject to erosion? Loss of habitat would reduce
hunting and erosion could affect water quality for others.
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

Dioclese - 05 Jul 2008 13:36 GMT
>> Way I look at, its a matter of convenience for the landowner not to wait
>> for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> leaving the ground subject to erosion? Loss of habitat would reduce
> hunting and erosion could affect water quality for others.

Read again my previous reply, strip cutting a forest is usually a commercial
enterprise.

Hurricanes, tornadoes, and fires have been laying waste to sections of
forests before any of our great-grandparents were born.  Severe erosion is
the exception, not the rule, in these cases.  Granted, its not pleasing to
the eye.  In my opinion, that, the eye appeal, is what is actually driving
most people to have the knee jerk "fix" it opinion.  The habitat isn't going
to be fixed in short notice by planting some baby trees.
Signature

Dave

New drilling sites for oil offshore and other
sensitive places.  Question is, will that oil
go here in the U.S., or someplace else for sale?

Jangchub - 05 Jul 2008 14:27 GMT
>New drilling sites for oil offshore and other
>sensitive places.  Question is, will that oil
>go here in the U.S., or someplace else for sale?

I would bet the house ALL the oil we drill goes to Europe where the
prices have been 2 dollars US for a litre for decades and decades.
Don Staples - 05 Jul 2008 15:10 GMT
>>> Way I look at, its a matter of convenience for the landowner not to wait
>>> for
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> most people to have the knee jerk "fix" it opinion.  The habitat isn't
> going to be fixed in short notice by planting some baby trees.

So, you would do nothing?
Billy - 05 Jul 2008 19:36 GMT
> >>> Way I look at, its a matter of convenience for the landowner not to wait
> >>> for
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> So, you would do nothing?

Speaking only for myself, I would check with experts in the field of
forestry for some options. Someone like the Forest Stewardship Council
(you've heard of them, right?).
Ayn Rand aside, we live in a society where everyone's actions affect
other people (society at large). It only makes sense to maximize
societal profits (habitat, clean air & water, recreation, a rewarded
steward of the land) and minimize societal costs (the opposite of the
previous parenthesizes).
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

Don Staples - 05 Jul 2008 20:16 GMT
>> >>> Way I look at, its a matter of convenience for the landowner not to
>> >>> wait
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> steward of the land) and minimize societal costs (the opposite of the
> previous parenthesizes).

The Council would refer you to a forester, how about that, besides, the
question was not addressed to you.   As always the liberals want to take on
all comers with little to go with.
Billy - 05 Jul 2008 21:36 GMT
> >> > .
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> question was not addressed to you.   As always the liberals want to take on
> all comers with little to go with.

A certified (by them) forester [http://www.fscus.org/]. Look 'em up. I'm
sure you can learn a lot. Unlike some pretend foresters who live on the
dark underbelly of forestry, they aren't into strip cut and sell, as you
advertise on your web site. And that's a flaming liberal to you,
jerk-off. I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a private conversation on
the public's bandwidth. Besides, I saw it was just you. Anybody else
would have to be an improvement. You Bushites just don't like second
opinions do you?

All ad hominems are gratuitous ;o)
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

D. Staples - 06 Jul 2008 04:25 GMT
>> The Council would refer you to a forester, how about that, besides, the
>> question was not addressed to you.   As always the liberals want to take
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> A certified (by them) forester [http://www.fscus.org/]. Look 'em up. I'm
> sure you can learn a lot.

I am certified, dumb a.s.  I write certified plans, you, on the other hand,
are certifiable.

Unlike some pretend foresters who live on the
> dark underbelly of forestry, they aren't into strip cut and sell, as you
> advertise on your web site.

Strip cut, you have used that before, cannot seem to find that in any
forestry book, did you make that up?  How clever of you.  Do you mean clear
cut?  Did not read my web site, huh, listened to your boy friend John, huh?

Hows the chemistry going, did you ever find that underground source of
phospherous?

And that's a flaming liberal to you,
> jerk-off. I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a private conversation on
> the public's bandwidth. Besides, I saw it was just you. Anybody else
> would have to be an improvement. You Bushites just don't like second
> opinions do you?

We like opinions based in education, not from some doper from the land of
fruit and nuts.

> All ad hominems are gratuitous ;o)

Enjoy, dumb a.s.

Bi-polar rant on politicians, how quaint.
Billy - 06 Jul 2008 06:52 GMT
> >> The Council would refer you to a forester, how about that, besides, the
> >> question was not addressed to you.   As always the liberals want to take
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I am certified, dumb a.s.  I write certified plans, you, on the other hand,
> are certifiable.

If you weren't so pathetic you would be laughable. Your only function in
this newsgroup is to play John's nagging wife. What shall we call you,
Blanche, Blanche Bickerson?

"Those concerned about the long-term future of their own industry
impelled some timber industry representatives and foresters in the early
1990s to launch discussions with environmental and social organizations
and associations of indigenous peoples. In 1993 those discussions
resulted in the formation of an international non-profit organization
called the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC), which is headquartered in
Germany and funded by several businesses, governments, foundations, and
environmental orga¬nizations. The council is run by an elected board,
and ultimately by the FSC's membership, which includes representatives
of the timber industry and of environmental and social interests. The
FSC's original tasks were three-fold: to draw up a list of criteria of
sound forest management; then, to set up a mechanism for certifying
whether any particular forest satisfied those criteria; and, finally, to
set up another mechanism for tracing products from such a certified
forest through the complex supplier chain all the way to the consumers,
so that a consumer could know whether the paper, chair, or board that he
or she was buying in a store, and that carried the FSC logo, actually
came from a soundly managed forest."

Are you this kind of a forester Blanche? Or are you the kind that puts
the money in your pocket and runs? After all, what is wrong with
habitat, clean air and water, soil conservation, and recreation? What
twisted thoughts do you have to share with us, Blanche?
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

D. Staples - 06 Jul 2008 15:38 GMT
>> >> The Council would refer you to a forester, how about that, besides,
>> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> habitat, clean air and water, soil conservation, and recreation? What
> twisted thoughts do you have to share with us, Blanche?

My thoughts are that you, like the yard man, know absolutely nothing about
forestry, the forest industry, private forestry, or what a forester is and
does.  The US state forestry agencies have had certification for private
lands for decades, which, since you seem to know so little, include game
management, endangered species management, stream management, and any other
area that foresters, as biologists, are trained to manage.

I think that you shall be the yard mans bitch.  f.ck off, doper.
Jangchub - 06 Jul 2008 18:52 GMT
>My thoughts are that you, like the yard man, know absolutely nothing about
>forestry, the forest industry, private forestry, or what a forester is and
>does.  The US state forestry agencies have had certification for private
>lands for decades, which, since you seem to know so little, include game
>management, endangered species management, stream management, and any other
>area that foresters, as biologists, are trained to manage.

Aside from the obvious, what are the biggest differences between a
rangeland ecologist, and a forester?  It would seem they both go
together.

V
D. Staples - 06 Jul 2008 20:54 GMT
>>My thoughts are that you, like the yard man, know absolutely nothing about
>>forestry, the forest industry, private forestry, or what a forester is and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> rangeland ecologist, and a forester?  It would seem they both go
> together.

Rangeland ecologist gets heavily in to grasses, forbs and herbs, along with
soils and the critter management that goes with it.  We are tree folk, with,
usually, some knowledge of the understory and the critters that go with it.
Rangeland management is more heavily tilted towards animal usage.
Jangchub - 06 Jul 2008 22:18 GMT
>>>My thoughts are that you, like the yard man, know absolutely nothing about
>>>forestry, the forest industry, private forestry, or what a forester is and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>usually, some knowledge of the understory and the critters that go with it.
>Rangeland management is more heavily tilted towards animal usage.

Yes, it is geared toward animal, flora and fauna.  We're losing a lot
of it every second of every day.
Billy - 06 Jul 2008 23:44 GMT
> >My thoughts are that you, like the yard man, know absolutely nothing about
> >forestry, the forest industry, private forestry, or what a forester is and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> V

Interestingly enough, Forestry, as a science, began in Germany and
Japan, independently of each other, in the 1880s.
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

D. Staples - 07 Jul 2008 04:03 GMT
> Interestingly enough, Forestry, as a science, began in Germany and
> Japan, independently of each other, in the 1880s.
Your knowledge of forestry continues to amaze me, in 1967 I was in a
sycamore stand in Germany that had been under management for over 300 years,
by foresters.  Less see, in your world this year is 2180.
Billy - 06 Jul 2008 19:35 GMT
> >> >> The Council would refer you to a forester, how about that, besides,
> >> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> I think that you shall be the yard mans bitch.  F**k off, doper.

Jeez Blanche, is it that time of the month again?

The question I asked was,"Does that mean strip cutting the forest,
removal of all habitat and leaving the ground subject to erosion?"

Get help.
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

D. Staples - 06 Jul 2008 21:01 GMT
> The question I asked was,"Does that mean strip cutting the forest,
> removal of all habitat and leaving the ground subject to erosion?"

cutting the forest, removal of all habitat and leaving the ground subject to
erosion is usually what some city a.s hole does when he moves to a rural
area and creates his "farm".  Like I said, you have no concept of forestry,
foresters, or, apparently, ecolcogy.

You have still failed to define "strip cutting"  (sh.t, just sounded like
the yard man) as defined in your addled mind.

Like I said, f.ck off, doper.

> Get help.
Billy - 06 Jul 2008 23:31 GMT
> > The question I asked was,"Does that mean strip cutting the forest,
> > removal of all habitat and leaving the ground subject to erosion?"
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> You have still failed to define "strip cutting"

You boys have become quite the item. You even sound alike. Wonder if
you're starting to look alike.

> (sh.t, just sounded like
> the yard man) as defined in your addled mind.
>
> Like I said, f.ck off, doper.
Sounds so like you. Were you ever literate?

> > Get help.
> Yard mans bitch

I know you can't help it Don, but you are giving vulgar a bad name. Must
be the way you were raised.

I asked a simple question of Dave.
In article <Ue6dnbE_kotOjfPVnZ2dnUVZ_s_inZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:

> Way I look at, its a matter of convenience for the landowner not to wait for
> natural conditions for natural recovery in regards to commercial enterprise.
>
> There's no reason for unused land not to follow natural conditions for
> recovery.

Does that mean strip cutting the forest, removal of all habitat and
leaving the ground subject to erosion? Loss of habitat would reduce
hunting and erosion could affect water quality for others.
Signature


Billy

-------

Here in Northern California, there have been considerable complaints
about strip cutting near water ways with attendant loss of water quality
and erosion. Much of this took place with Maaxam Inc. and the despicable
Charles Hurwitz, its' CEO and President, which bought Pacific Lumber and
tried to cash out its' assets instead of maintaining it as a sustainable
lumber mill.

So I was just trying to clarify a point and you went all paranoid. Sorry
to disturb your fantasy of competency.

God, you are dumb. You are an inspiration to all the dumb of the world
who seek to discover and contemplate the profound dumbness of dumb.

Your insecurity is pathetic.

Don't let me keep you. I understand there is an arborist looking for you.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

Charlie - 07 Jul 2008 01:23 GMT
>> > The question I asked was,"Does that mean strip cutting the forest,
>> > removal of all habitat and leaving the ground subject to erosion?"
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>You boys have become quite the item. You even sound alike. Wonder if
>you're starting to look alike.

One coin, two sides?

>> (sh.t, just sounded like
>> the yard man) as defined in your addled mind.
>>
>> Like I said, f.ck off, doper.

This sounds so like my father in law, Billy...good republican and xian
that he is.  I had to listen to yet another dope diatribe yesterday at
a family get together..

I wonder about those folks that attempt to denigrate others with their
"dope" comments....illuminating stuff that.  Kinda like jangchub
labeling Bill Maher a "pothead"...uh, so what?  All that this conveys
to me is something ugly about V, and staples/keslick, for that matter.

Charlie, longing for the good old days, I am, I am....
Billy - 07 Jul 2008 02:40 GMT
> >> > The question I asked was,"Does that mean strip cutting the forest,
> >> > removal of all habitat and leaving the ground subject to erosion?"
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Charlie, longing for the good old days, I am, I am....

What is that old story about a Southern Baptist can't be happy because
they know somewhere someone is having a good time?

Two hundred years from now, if there is anybody left, they'll look back
and be amazed how superstitious and ignorant we were.

But screw the old "dark underbelly of forestry". How is your garden
coming along. Sometimes I really envy you flat land people. Plenty warm
here today. The weather guesser  said it got to 92F. Felt hotter.
Tomorrow we are supposed to break the century mark. Got my spray nozzel
out and I'm misting the vegetation every couple of hours. Wearing a long
sleeve white shirt, shorts, and a straw hat. Occasionally, I shot the
water straight up. Cheap thrills;o)

Down to my last hand full of blueberries. Getting a few pretty nice
strawberries. The squash is a couple of days away from eating and I'm
trying to figure out haw to speed up the "Golden Bantam" sweet corn.

Got my other eye-ball done on Thursday. Gotta get me some reading
glasses tomorrow. The newspaper is just frustrating. I have a reading
glass but it is awkward to use while reading a newspaper and drinking a
cup of coffee. Then of course there is all the nekked women running
around, and the darn hookah keeps getting knocked over, and I keep
losing the cork to my breakfast, but I insist on cooking my eggs in real
butter;o))

Some things money can't buy, true love, and home grown tomatoes.
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Charlie - 08 Jul 2008 05:49 GMT
>What is that old story about a Southern Baptist can't be happy because
>they know somewhere someone is having a good time?

Heh heh.....aint' that the truth.

>Two hundred years from now, if there is anybody left, they'll look back
>and be amazed how superstitious and ignorant we were.

Yet....superstition, religion, science and all aside.....it all comes
down to one unanswerable question....and that is....from whence came
matter?  There is no reason that there should be *anything*, eh?  From
whence comes anything?  There is no logically explainable anything that
explains this.  Meant to drive us crazy and kill one another, I
suppose.

Perhaps Alan Watts was right.  Maybe we are simply god playing hide and
seek with himself.

Did you ever have occasion to cross with him?

>But screw the old "dark underbelly of forestry". How is your garden
>coming along. Sometimes I really envy you flat land people. Plenty warm
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>sleeve white shirt, shorts, and a straw hat. Occasionally, I shot the
>water straight up. Cheap thrills;o)

Sheet mon, sounds like you be dresson' like one o' them hippie farmer
types.   Bet you even wear them hippie sandals, eh brother! ;-)

It was a hot bitch here in the flatlands today...97F and 60%
humid.....I;ve been out doing the garden by headlamp, avoiding the
heat.  Had to water most of the pots (that is containers, as in
container gardening, Dumbass Staples, not watering the *dope*) three
times today.  Counted them and we have 72 containers.

>Down to my last hand full of blueberries. Getting a few pretty nice
>strawberries. The squash is a couple of days away from eating and I'm
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>losing the cork to my breakfast, but I insist on cooking my eggs in real
>butter;o))

Oh baby...eggs in butter simply don't get no better!!!

Speaking of newspapers, The KC Star just discontinued delivery to our
area and laid off a shitload of employees.  Speaks for itself.  Des
Moines no longer brings down either and talk is that Omaha is
considering.

Assuming the peeper is doing as expected and the kitchen color is now
proper.  Whadda ya' think....are ye as handsome as you last remember?
And I bet Lovey is even Lovlier......

Ain't nothing better than the morning paper, a proper cup of coffee
from a copper coffee pot, and eggs done in butter....after a
wine-filled-hookah appetizer, of course.  Poor old republican staples
is wound too tight.

>Some things money can't buy, true love, and home grown tomatoes.

Amen Bruddah... ;-)

Peace, Love and Don Staples
Charlie
Billy - 08 Jul 2008 06:58 GMT
> >What is that old story about a Southern Baptist can't be happy because
> >they know somewhere someone is having a good time?
>
> Heh heh.....aint' that the truth.
Ah, good to see you up and around junger. Miss yo crusty ol' a.s.

Oh, I know there is a lot of bad things goin' on at every second but O
try to think about the sweetness, and the happiness, and the tenderness
that is happening as I wake up, have lunch, and while I sleep. We got to
get rid of that crap, and you know who is at the head of my list.

> >Two hundred years from now, if there is anybody left, they'll look back
> >and be amazed how superstitious and ignorant we were.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Did you ever have occasion to cross with him?
No, but I had one of his classmates for a philosophy instructor, lo
these many years ago, Pierre Grimes. He was a gooden too.

> >But screw the old "dark underbelly of forestry". How is your garden
> >coming along. Sometimes I really envy you flat land people. Plenty warm
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Sheet mon, sounds like you be dresson' like one o' them hippie farmer
> types.   Bet you even wear them hippie sandals, eh brother! ;-)

Birkenstocks? I'm in California man, what do you expect me to be
wearing? I'm still of the opinion that clothes are optional. If people
don't like what they see, they shouldn't look.

> It was a hot bitch here in the flatlands today...97F and 60%
> humid.....I;ve been out doing the garden by headlamp, avoiding the
> heat.  Had to water most of the pots (that is containers, as in
> container gardening, Dumbass Staples, not watering the *dope*) three
> times today.  Counted them and we have 72 containers.
I did three waterings (well one watering and two mistings) today. Wicked
heat, the little plants can't take it.

> >Down to my last hand full of blueberries. Getting a few pretty nice
> >strawberries. The squash is a couple of days away from eating and I'm
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Oh baby...eggs in butter simply don't get no better!!!
Then I fold in a little onion, jalapeno, tomato, cilantro, kalamata
olives, a slice of cheedar, a little smoked pig or turkey, and some of
Mrs. Renfro's green salsa inside and out with some toasted french bread
on the side, and serve it up with a glass of Two Buck Chuck and call it
brunch (I dump way too much glycogen in the morning to do it any
earlier). Then with any luck I garden. If not, I get a much deserved nap.

> Speaking of newspapers, The KC Star just discontinued delivery to our
> area and laid off a shitload of employees.  Speaks for itself.  Des
> Moines no longer brings down either and talk is that Omaha is
> considering.
I almost wish that the local fish wrap would fold (NY Times subsidiary:
The Press Democrat). It is strictly infotainment and doesn't explain or
put into context any thing. If anything, it is trying to undermine
our local Representative (Lynn Woolsey) who is doing a damn good job.
This area is very liberal but at least half the letters to the editor
are nut case conservatives. Not conservatives, I repeat, nut case
conservatives who would rather cut off medical and cost of living
benefits to the old, the sick, and the young than talk about raising
taxes. This while insisting that people who keep their yachts out of the
country for three months after buying them, should be charged less than
standard sales tax. Scharzenegger is a jerk. He is no better than "Gray"
Davis, the jerk he replaced.

> Assuming the peeper is doing as expected and the kitchen color is now
> proper.  Whadda ya' think....are ye as handsome as you last remember?
> And I bet Lovey is even Lovlier......

Wines start out fruity, which they lose with age but in the process
develop a more complex bouquet. I was having trouble with my sight. My
taste has always been good. And you know, I know she has gotten older
but I still see the girl I fell in love with.

> Ain't nothing better than the morning paper, a proper cup of coffee
> from a copper coffee pot, and eggs done in butter....after a
> wine-filled-hookah appetizer, of course.  Poor old republican staples
> is wound too tight.

Well, at least I'm out of bed by 7 AM most days. T'was a time it was
more like noon and all my appetites were satiated. Every age is
different.

> >Some things money can't buy, true love, and home grown tomatoes.
>
> Amen Bruddah... ;-)
and Halleluja . . .;o))

> Peace, Love and Don Staples
> Charlie

Ah yes, the eternal dualism. Can't have an up without the down.

Good talkin' with you junger.
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Charlie - 09 Jul 2008 06:05 GMT
>> >What is that old story about a Southern Baptist can't be happy because
>> >they know somewhere someone is having a good time?
>>
>> Heh heh.....aint' that the truth.
>Ah, good to see you up and around junger. Miss yo crusty ol' a.s.

Hey thanks, Bruddah....comin' up for air after a bit too long in the
sewers.  

>Oh, I know there is a lot of bad things goin' on at every second but O
>try to think about the sweetness, and the happiness, and the tenderness
>that is happening as I wake up, have lunch, and while I sleep. We got to
>get rid of that crap, and you know who is at the head of my list

Yeah, and Numero Uno has something to say to you about that...

http://www.popular-pics.com/pictures.aspx?photoid=867

>> >Two hundred years from now, if there is anybody left, they'll look back
>> >and be amazed how superstitious and ignorant we were.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>No, but I had one of his classmates for a philosophy instructor, lo
>these many years ago, Pierre Grimes. He was a gooden too.

"Goin' to San Bernadino, ring-a-ding-ding..."

Same Pierre Grimes that is doing the Spiritual Midwifery thing?  You
ran with some enlightened folks, bro, indeed you did.  Degrees of
seperation and all that and I can make claim now to Alan Watts in just
a couple. ;-)

>> >But screw the old "dark underbelly of forestry". How is your garden
>> >coming along. Sometimes I really envy you flat land people. Plenty warm
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>wearing? I'm still of the opinion that clothes are optional. If people
>don't like what they see, they shouldn't look.

I too been wearing Birkies for many years and I be a flatlander...y'all
can't lay sole claim to all that sh.t, bro.

>> It was a hot bitch here in the flatlands today...97F and 60%
>> humid.....I;ve been out doing the garden by headlamp, avoiding the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>brunch (I dump way too much glycogen in the morning to do it any
>earlier). Then with any luck I garden. If not, I get a much deserved nap.

Ma Renfro's Green is good stuff indeed.  We've started our summer
frittatas.  GO out and grab whatever sounds right and saute it, in
butter of course, toss in the eggies and then head for the
oven....heaven, heaven.....

Speaking of jalepenos.....ours are bearing like crazy.  They started
out several weeks ago being kinda pussy peppers, but todays handful
with lunch brought on the sweat.  Perhaps it is the tea?

Fish peppers are starting to produce.  Now then, these are some fiesty
little capsicums about the size your thumbnail... little more heat than
the tabascos and definitely enough to elicit a sweat.  Great flavor.
THese should be great processed in vinegar and set in the fridge.

>> Speaking of newspapers, The KC Star just discontinued delivery to our
>> area and laid off a shitload of employees.  Speaks for itself.  Des
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>taste has always been good. And you know, I know she has gotten older
>but I still see the girl I fell in love with.

I know, my friend. My Love and I started when I was a mere thirteen
years old and now, here we are, after all these many years....

>> Ain't nothing better than the morning paper, a proper cup of coffee
>> from a copper coffee pot, and eggs done in butter....after a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Ah yes, the eternal dualism. Can't have an up without the down.

Indeed. :-)

>Good talkin' with you junger.
   
Immer
Frieden und Liebe zu dir, mein älterer Bruder

Charlie

"You just caught me on a good night. I'm doing what I was made to do -
and I've got a feeling I'm going to do it even better this time"
                                              - Captain Billy Tyne
Billy - 09 Jul 2008 18:17 GMT
> >> Did you ever have occasion to cross with him?
> >No, but I had one of his classmates for a philosophy instructor, lo
> >these many years ago, Pierre Grimes. He was a gooden too.
>
> "Goin' to San Bernadino, ring-a-ding-ding..."
Que?

> Same Pierre Grimes that is doing the Spiritual Midwifery thing?  You
> ran with some enlightened folks, bro, indeed you did.  Degrees of
> seperation and all that and I can make claim now to Alan Watts in just
> a couple. ;-)

Always wondered what ever happened to Pierre. I was taking classes at
Orange Coast College (J.C.) in Costa Mesa when I took his class in
philosophy. He looked to be about 28. It was in his class that I
discovered the humor in Plato's Socrates. In any event, nearly a half
century later I still remember him. Thanks for the stroll down memory
lane:o))
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Charlie - 09 Jul 2008 19:21 GMT
>> >> Did you ever have occasion to cross with him?
>> >No, but I had one of his classmates for a philosophy instructor, lo
>> >these many years ago, Pierre Grimes. He was a gooden too.
>>
>> "Goin' to San Bernadino, ring-a-ding-ding..."
>Que?

Miscue.  I was thinking he was in San Bernadino,when it is Huntington
Beach instead, and San Bernadino reminded me of the Knopfler song "Boom
Like That" of which the above is one of the lines......sorry for the
confusion....it's like that in my head quite often ;-)  Of course the
song is playing on a continual loop in my head now........earworm, in
German there is a word for this, can't remember it, but it translates
roughly as earworm....I think.

>> Same Pierre Grimes that is doing the Spiritual Midwifery thing?  You
>> ran with some enlightened folks, bro, indeed you did.  Degrees of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>century later I still remember him. Thanks for the stroll down memory
>lane:o))

You're welcome :-)

http://www.openingmind.com/bground.htm

Charlie
D. Staples - 07 Jul 2008 04:06 GMT
So answer the question, doper, what is strip cutting?
Billy - 07 Jul 2008 06:32 GMT
> So answer the question, doper, what is strip cutting?
So answer the question, do you still beat your wife?
What do you mean by strip? What do you mean by cutting?
What do you mean by the "dark under belly" of forestry?
Please keep your responses concise.
And if you die, who would care?
Come on potty mouth. What do you have for us?
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Don Staples - 07 Jul 2008 15:23 GMT
>> So answer the question, doper, what is strip cutting?
> So answer the question, do you still beat your wife?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And if you die, who would care?
> Come on potty mouth. What do you have for us?

You need to stay off your home grown pharmaceuticals, your asking me for
answers that  you should be providing, since you brought them up, doper.
You abysmal lack of forestry, environmental, and nature is typical of the
nets attraction to wannabe's.  Your failure to answer is typical as well,
doper.
Billy - 07 Jul 2008 16:28 GMT
> >> So answer the question, doper, what is strip cutting?
> > So answer the question, do you still beat your wife?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> nets attraction to wannabe's.  Your failure to answer is typical as well,
> doper.

What is this fascination with home grown pharmaceuticals, as you call
them? You seem obsessed. At least you cleaned up your language, thanks.
You shouldn't need me to look up the definitions for "strip" and
"cutting" for you. "Dark under belly" IIRC your melancholy description
of yourself, so I leave the definition to you. I have an abysmal lack of
forestry, environmental, and nature? What are you trying to say?
I wanna be what? Like you? God forbid! Then it is back to your
fascination with drugs. Are you a consulting expert in this field, or
does god just talk to you directly? Where in your response is there the
slightest bit of authority supported information? What set you down this
road when all I did was ask a simple question of Dave? Got it? Dave, not
you. You just going to stand there in your muddy boots and glare?

Are you a Forest Stewardship Council registered forester?
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Don Staples - 07 Jul 2008 19:56 GMT
> What is this fascination with home grown pharmaceuticals, as you call
> them? You seem obsessed. At least you cleaned up your language, thanks.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> road when all I did was ask a simple question of Dave? Got it? Dave, not
> you. You just going to stand there in your muddy boots and glare?

You used the term "strip cutting" a term I never heard anyone in the
business use, so, from your fertile imagination, what is it?  I know hard
questions like that take a lot out of your revelries, but give it a try.

Oh, least you think all is love and kisses, f.ck off, doper.
Billy - 07 Jul 2008 23:11 GMT
> > What is this fascination with home grown pharmaceuticals, as you call
> > them? You seem obsessed. At least you cleaned up your language, thanks.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Oh, least you think all is love and kisses, f.ck off, doper.

Since you seem to be too weighed down with scatological baggage to look
figure it out, strip cutting would be to remove (strip) by cutting. How
is your little brain? That wasn't too much at once for our little "muddy
booted dirty underbelly" was it? Be sure to take them off before you go
into your halls of ivory or it will eventually look like any other pig
sty. Oh, little guy, talking dirty doesn't make you manly. It just
exposes you for the ignorant, insensitive jerk that you are. Just
another mean/maudlin drunk.

From: "D. Staples" <foreste...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:58:40 -0500
Local: Mon, Jun 25 2007 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: alt.forestry

Don: Ah, but Joe, we are merely the dirty underbelly of the profession,
the one's that actually get mud on our boots, what could we collectively
know about the profession of forestry. We don't get the strokes, the
diamond studded collars, or the "Forester of the Year" awards.  All we
do is grow trees and manage forests.  This site represents the real
world of forestry. The archivists will call us a cult, or untermenchen,
of the real forestry world recorded in the great Halls of Ivory.
----

Jeez Donny, how maudlin can you get? Don't feel too bad though, Donny
boy. Some day others will think of you the same as we do, nothin'.
Halls of Ivy, but Ivory? Did you just fall out of a Marvel comic book?

Ignore this fool
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D. Staples - 08 Jul 2008 03:42 GMT
> Since you seem to be too weighed down with scatological baggage to look
> figure it out, strip cutting would be to remove (strip) by cutting. How
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> exposes you for the ignorant, insensitive jerk that you are. Just
> another mean/maudlin drunk.

Ah, you mean clear cutting, what the profession calls it, to bad you talk
about forestry, but fail to understand the terms, the correct terms, and use
them correctly.  To much for you, huh, doper?  So tell us, the great
unwashed masses, what, as you call it, strip cutting does?  How much is
removed, what is left behind.  Since there are a multitude of forest types,
perhaps you would be so good as to give an in depth annalysis of all those
types, which ones respond to "strip" cutting, and which ones do not.  YOU
have all that knowledge, right, yard mans bitch?

> From: "D. Staples" <foreste...@yahoo.com>
> Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:58:40 -0500
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> world of forestry. The archivists will call us a cult, or untermenchen,
> of the real forestry world recorded in the great Halls of Ivory.

I see that dope has prevented you from posting the entire thread, and that
dope does not let you see satire when applied.

> Jeez Donny, how maudlin can you get? Don't feel too bad though, Donny
> boy. Some day others will think of you the same as we do, nothin'.
> Halls of Ivy, but Ivory? Did you just fall out of a Marvel comic book?

You actually think, what a concept, you still have one or two working brain
cells.

> Ignore this fool

Speaking of ignoring fools, yard mans bitch is one to watch, he seldom adds
to the conversation, gets into his pipe and crawls out.

As I have said often, f.ck off, doper.
Billy - 09 Jul 2008 05:42 GMT
> > Since you seem to be too weighed down with scatological baggage to look
> > figure it out, strip cutting would be to remove (strip) by cutting. How
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> As I have said often, f.ck off, doper.

Ignore this fool
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Charlie - 07 Jul 2008 01:28 GMT
>I think that you shall be the yard mans bitch.  f.ck off, doper.

Whew, staples.....you need to come in from the killing fields, put on
some Joni, blow a couple bowls, get laid, and mellow out, man...

Charlie
D. Staples - 07 Jul 2008 04:04 GMT
>>I think that you shall be the yard mans bitch.  f.ck off, doper.
>
> Whew, staples.....you need to come in from the killing fields, put on
> some Joni, blow a couple bowls, get laid, and mellow out, man...

Hey, what I told yard mans bitch, f.ck off, doper.
Charlie - 07 Jul 2008 04:52 GMT
>>>I think that you shall be the yard mans bitch.  f.ck off, doper.
>>
>> Whew, staples.....you need to come in from the killing fields, put on
>> some Joni, blow a couple bowls, get laid, and mellow out, man...
>
>Hey, what I told yard mans bitch, f.ck off, doper.

Yes, you certainly do remind me of my FIL, republican.  Same quick
temper and mindless responses.  Same lowlife language in labeling.  

I wonder if you also harbor the same perverse sexual proclivities as my
republican xian father-in-law?  Funny thing it is, reading people's
posts and poking them just a bit to see how they react.  You didn't
surprise me one bit, Killer.

Thanks for playing, moron.  You may now go back to blowing keslick's
every post.

Peace, Love and Dope
Charlie
Don Staples - 07 Jul 2008 15:24 GMT
>>>>I think that you shall be the yard mans bitch.  f.ck off, doper.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Peace, Love and Dope
> Charlie

Does that mean you are through, a.s hole?
Charlie - 09 Jul 2008 04:45 GMT
>Does that mean you are through, a.s hole?

Not likely, dope.

Charlie
Billy - 09 Jul 2008 17:12 GMT
> >Does that mean you are through, a.s hole?
>
> Not likely, dope.
>
> Charlie

I think we have given this foul-mouthed, muddy booted, dark-under belly
of a pretentious untermench too much space. Let's go back to the
sunshine.

106F here yesterday. Emilie, up in our northern outpost of civilization
here in California, beat me out at 109F. Temp is miserable for people
but my mature tomatoes, squash, and cucumbers are loving it. I can
practically watch the tomatoes turning red. My fringe pink (dianthus
superbus) is in bloom and adds some color to the green of the hedges and
ivy. I think I need more bio-mass before I start experimenting with it.
The twig of an English hawthorn that I got last year is about three feet
high and has four main branches. Hopefully, I can start harvesting it  
next year. The raccoon that ravaged the cabbage and the lettuce, seems
to have moved on. No further incidents since I started relieving myself
in his dining area.

Talk later. Time to button up the house again.

Shields up!
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

Don Staples - 09 Jul 2008 20:11 GMT
>> >Does that mean you are through, a.s hole?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of a pretentious untermench too much space. Let's go back to the
> sunshine.

So, you and your other dopers are giving up trying to be foresters, how
nice.
Billy - 05 Jul 2008 19:24 GMT
> >> Way I look at, its a matter of convenience for the landowner not to wait
> >> for
> >> natural conditions for natural recovery in regards to commercial
> >> enterprise.

OK, so you're not recommending strip cutting. That was the question:-)
Signature


Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

symplastless - 04 Jul 2008 18:07 GMT
>>> Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
>>> beetles had destroyed the stand?  Other than dissect the trees for what
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
> http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

Don Staples.  Let me make sure I have the question right.  What treatment
could there possibly be other than salvage and restore as stated on your
website.  http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm Which
means remove all substrate for the base of the food web.  And you call me a
fool?

From you Don, I see that's the only treatment know or understand to do,
i.e., get the wood out.  You call me a yardman.  Not a bad thing to be
especially having a background in tree biology.  What a great place to apply
what I have come to understanding with Tree Biology coming of age.

Research and publications suggest that Course woody debris help in the
succession of plant life after a disturbance such as but not limited too,
tornado's,  waves of insects, fire, etc.  Your salvaging does not address
these issues.

To answer your question I would contact a few friends in the US FOREST
SERVICE research department and come up with a treatment plan based on a
thorough understanding of tree biology.  I hope I addressed your question

BTW  Don, Happy Fourth.  I would stand by you if this country was ever
invaded.  Have a great day!

Signature

Do to the overwhelming amount a negative criticism by a few individuals on
this list, I am only willing to get into debate by way of email.  I have a
background in tree biology, my negative critics do not.  I am willing to
answer any questions you may have.  If I do not have the answer I know where
to get it, based on a thorough understanding of tree biology.  Contact me at
treeman@treedictionary.com   A good foundation for understanding trees,
associates and treatments, can be found here: www.shigoandtrees.com   Most
topics, correct planting, mulching, pruning and fertilization can be found
at www.treedictionary.com

Happy gardening!

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

Don Staples - 04 Jul 2008 19:24 GMT
> To answer your question I would contact a few friends in the US FOREST
> SERVICE research department and come up with a treatment plan based on a
> thorough understanding of tree biology.  I hope I addressed your question

The US Forest Service recommends salvage, dumb a.s.

When are you going to take your Arborist exam again, dumb a.s?

> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
> that will give them understanding.
Jangchub - 04 Jul 2008 19:39 GMT
>The US Forest Service recommends salvage, dumb a.s.

I just threw up in my mouth a little!  Euuuuueeewww.

I think I'm done.  He's in the bin.  I just can't stand him any more.

Happy Independence Day!  Me, I'd run the other way if this country was
invaded.  I am going to run before it happens.  We're looking at Costa
Rica and Belize...or the Pacific Northwest in Canada.  

If we really can't stand even to be on this continent, Italy or
France.  All those formal Mediterranean gardens; his head would
explode!

v
symplastless - 03 Jul 2008 14:44 GMT
> Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
> beetles had destroyed the stand?  Other than dissect the trees for what
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.

Tornado's And Salvaging 2 of 16

Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas (Don Staples), which I would assume is a forestry industry
standard.  "Salvage and restoration. There comes a time when nature just
does not cooperate with the best of management efforts. At that time you may
have to salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different
sales effort for forest products. Usually, the sales material is damaged,
dead, or dying. Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and
incomes low. But, best to move the material, get it out of the way for
future work. Take what income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for
planting the site."

I accept the definition, however,  I disagree that you can plant a forest as
well as the statement that you may have to remove what is left, which in
this case would be the old growth conditions (Tionesta).  I use the Tionesta
Scenic Area in the Allegheny National Forest as a control.  It had a tornado
go through in around 1986 and most recently had a blow down.  As far as I
know nothing has been removed and all ecological stages of trees exist.  I
did soil sampling in that area in the rhizoplane.

What tornados do not do, verses doing the following after a tornado.  In
other words what would removing wood from a tornado swath achieve -   I.e.,
not limited too but including -

I believe, Salvaging would alter the carbon to nitrogen ratio over time.
Something to keep in mind - Reports from some countries indicate an
abundance of soluble nitrogen compounds in runoff water and even in ground
water. This is a strong indication that the carbon-nitrogen ratio has been
disrupted in the soil.  It is well established from studies of the
physiology of fungal parasitism that the degree of parasitism is often
determined by the carbon-nitrogen ratio.  It is probably similar for other
organisms (Shigo, 1996).

Salvaging would be removing a storehouse for moisture, which would have
provided moisture for plants and animals during dry times such as summer
drought, as it may be called (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and Graham,
1991).

Salvaging would be removing present and future decayed logs, which act like
a sponge to absorb water and retain much of the water throughout the
following growing season.  This water would be a survival feature during
drought for members of the system (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and
Graham, 1991).

Too often "drought", what ever they mean, is used by the USFS to describe
the cause of mortality to trees, most often in areas that have been Salvaged
at one time or another.  I would think that the tornado spot has great
potential for moisture retention as those 400 increment old fallen hemlock
and white pine, which are heartwood forming trees, become like a sponge.
These nurse logs may be around for a long time.  Does anybody guess how long
a nurse log, from a 400 increment old Eastern Hemlock tree, would function
let's say with soil contact.  After tornado a flush of birch and cherry
quickly grew and shaded the soil and nurse logs.  I must return again.  Last
time we had to crawl on hands and knees to get in through the thickets of
growth.  A unique place to be - for sure.  My son and I were in there doing
pedology work.  Has anyone on this list ever crawled back in to Tionesta?

Just for fun!

http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/temp2/

Can someone offer suggestions on benefits of Salvaging and area with respect
for the health of the system?

Salvaging this area would be removing materials, that when soil contact was
made, would have played key roles with the cation exchange capacity, water -
holding capacity, bulk density, essential element and nutrient budgets and
erosion potential (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and Graham, 1991).

Salvaging this area would be removing woody material that has been
identified as playing several important roles in the functioning of the
region's forests.  In southwest Oregon, brown-cubical-rotted CWD acts as a
perched water reservoir, the spongy decayed wood being able to hold over
twice its own weight in water.  This material thus would have otherwise been
a major source of moisture for fungi and roots well into the summer drought
that characterizes the region (Amaranthus, Trappe and Bednar, 1994).  The
same has been seen in the Allegheny Mountains in the Cook State Park
Forest - Protected area, i.e., protected from Salvaging.  Animals also
utilize stored water.

Salvaging this area would stop the processes, which would take place between
a fallen tree and its surroundings, which would have increased, as
decomposition would have continued.  E.g., the flow of plant and animal
populations, air, water, and essential elements.  (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg 12).   Salvaging kills this system processes by means of disruption and
depletion causing dysfunction.

Salvaging this area would remove and reduce the forming of Large Stumps such
as in old-growth trees, which are a finite resource, and their loss from the
forest affects both soil shear strength and watershed hydrology (Maser,
Tarrant, Trappe, and Franklin, 1988, pg44-fig2.6).

Salvaging this area would remove CWD, and the associated epiphytic
bryophytes, which act as both essential element and moisture buffers for the
ecosystems (FEMAT 1993).  This buffering would allow the slow release of
water and essential elements to surrounding plants.  In mature and old
growth coastal forests, a large proportion of western hemlock and Sitka
spruce seedlings germinate and grow on CWD substrates (Harmon and Franklin
1989; G. Davis, pers. comm., 1994).

Salvaging this area would remove CWD, which would affect temperature as well
as moisture, which would have had the capacity to benefit certain beneficial
fungi (Amaranthus, Trappe and Bednar, 1994).

Salvaging this area would remove large, fallen trees or trees, in various
stages of decay.  Salvaging is removing parent material, which would
contribute much-needed diversity to terrestrial and aquatic habitats in
forests.  When most biological activity in soil is limited by low moisture
availability in summer, the material removed, fallen tree-soil interface,
would have offered a relatively cool, moist habitat for animals and a
substrate for microbial and root activity.  Intensified utilization and
management can deprive future forests of large, fallen trees.  The impact of
this loss on habitat diversity and on long-term forest productivity must be
determined because management needs sound information on which to base
resource management decisions (Maser and Trappe, 1984, Abstract-par2).

Salvaging this area would remove wood and its moisture-holding capacity thus
eliminating its internal processes and therefore the succession of plants
and animals. This affects the biotic community (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg4-par3).

Salvaging this are would remove some snags, which may have accumulated
moisture - carried essential elements and had a higher essential element
capital when it fell than does a tree with symplast (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg19-par2).   Figure that one out!

Salvaging this area would stop colonization of decomposing wood by animals
which would have helped microbes to enter interior surfaces of the wood and
create additional openings for entry of water and essential elements; and
penetration of the wood by roots of trees, such as western hemlock (eastern
hemlock in Tionesta and white pine), which in turn facilitates entry by
mycorrhizal fungi (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg19-par4).

Salvaging this area would remove many readily available essential elements
that support opportunistic colonizers as well as the remaining essential
elements, which would be locked in the more decay resistant compounds of the
wood.  Ultimately, organisms, with more sophisticated enzyme systems would,
have succeeded the rapidly growing opportunists. (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg37-par2)

- - - - - - - -
People that like to use Webster -

Salvage -

property or goods saved from damage or destruction

save from ruin, destruction, or harm

the act of saving goods or property that were in danger of damage or
destruction

- - - - - - - -

Salvaging this area would remove fallen tress or in some cases, future
fallen trees that when oriented along the contour of a slope, the upslope
side would be filled with humus and inorganic material which would have
allowed invertebrates and small vertebrates to tunnel alongside.  The down
slope side would have provided protective cover for larger vertebrates.
When under a closed canopy, such trees would have also been saturated with
water and act as a reservoir during the dry part of the year (Maser,
Tarrant, Trappe, and Franklin, 1988, pg45-par3).  Exactly the environment in
the swath at Tionesta.

Salvaging this area of so called rotten wood or so called rotten wood to be
would be removing  something critical as substrate for ectomycorrhizal
formation.  E.g., in one forest which contained a coniferous stand of trees
(Eastern Hemlock and White Pine are coniferous), over 95 percent of all
active mycorrhizae were in organic matter of which 21 percent were in
decayed wood.  In another study in the northern Rocky Mountains, decayed
wood in soil was important.  In moist, mesic, and arid habitat types (Harvey
et al. 1979), it was the most frequent substrate for active ectomycorrhizae
on the dry site, probably because of high moisture levels in the wood.
Mycorrhizal fungi can colonize logs, presumably using them as sources of
water, essential elements and nutrients.  (Franklin, Cromack, Kermit, et al.
others, 1981).

Where we are.  Endangered species. Salvaging this area would remove present
and future available moist microhabitats, primarily because of a lack of
large logs in intermediate and advanced stages of decay.  Aubry et al.
(1988) found that some species of salamander were most abundant around CWD.
Dupuis (1993) concluded that salamander populations in Salvaged areas were
limited by available moist microhabitats, primarily because of a lack of
large logs in intermediate and advanced stages of decay (Voller and
Harrison, 1998).
Note: There are salamander species on T & E list.

Salvaging in both terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems, is removing present
and future symplastless wood, which would have functioned as a reservoir of
moisture, ameliorating drought conditions and providing a 'perched water
table' (Triska and Cromack 1979) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).

My conclusion about water:  The capacity and ability, of CWD, to provide
water / moisture for fauna and flora during dryer times too often goes
unobserved, such as the case in this Painter Run Windthrow Salvage Project?
Coarse woody debris / ecoart nurse logs play a key role in providing the
requirements of water/moisture for survival of species of animals as well as
plants, be they listed as threatened and endangered or not.  This function
it plays a key role during hot, drier times.   To fully comprehend the
importance one must consider time.  This function must be thoroughly
considered before making a decision to remove this function from the system
or not.

References:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/whatitis/references.html

Case sensitive.

End of 2-16
Don Staples - 03 Jul 2008 14:53 GMT
Same as above, you dumb a.s.
symplastless - 03 Jul 2008 14:46 GMT
> Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
> beetles had destroyed the stand?  Other than dissect the trees for what
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
> http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

3 of 16

Tornado's And Salvaging

Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas, which I would assume is a forestry industry standard.

"Salvage and restoration.  There comes a time when nature just does not
cooperate with the best of management efforts.  At that time you may have to
salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different sales effort
for forest products.  Usually, the sales material is damaged, dead, or
dying.  Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and incomes low.
But, best to move the material, get it out of the way for future work.  Take
what income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for planting the
site."

I accept the person's definition, however,  I disagree that you can plant a
forest as well as the statement that you may have to remove what is left,
which in this case would be the old growth conditions (Tionesta).  I use the
Tionesta Scenic Area in the Allegheny National Forest as a control.  It had
a tornado go through in around 1986 and most recently had a blow down.  As
far as I know nothing has been removed and all ecological stages of trees
exist.  I did soil sampling in that area in the rhizoplane.

Elements, nutrients and food defined:  Food is a substance that provides and
energy source, mostly.  Nutrient is a substance that provides an energy
source, elements, and other substances essential for life, in types and
amounts that can provide a healthy life.  Fertilizer is a substance that
provides elements, as salts mostly, or in bonded forms, that require
microorganisms to alter to forms that can be absorbed by plants.  We cannot
and do not feed plants.  We add essential elements at Keslick And Son.
Trees manufacture their own food and they do not absorb a nutrient or food
from the soil.  We add essential elements.

If we could feed trees, we would take away the major job of the sun! People
who say "plant food" are ignorant about photosynthesis.

In other words:  Foods are substances that contain an energy source mostly,
and may contain some elements, and other substances.  The main part of food
is the energy source.  There are junk foods, fatty foods, and healthy foods.
There are many diet books telling you about healthy foods.  Animals can
absorb an energy source.  Plants cannot absorb an energy source. fertilizers
are not plant foods.  Fertilizers provide elements essential for growth of
plants.  The elements are part of salts, usually, that ionize in water.
Ions are charged particles; anions, negative, and cations, positive.  Plants
"make" carbohydrates by trapping the light energy of the sun in a process
called photosynthesis.  Sad that so many people who work with plants do not
know this.  They call fertilizers plant food. Very sad.

What tornados do not do, verses doing the following after a tornado.  In
other words what would salvaging wood from a tornado swath achieve -   I.e.,
not limited too but including -

Salvaging this area would alter the availability in the proper proportions
of the right "STEW" - Space, Temperature, Elements and Water over time.  It
is hard for the energy of the sun to optimally make a tree into the most
efficient system on earth when the right amount of essential elements and
water has been removed.

Salvaging this area would remove required substrate for a decomposition
process where fallen trees release essential elements for microbial and
plant growth (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg37-par1).
Thus, salvaging would remove essential elements for microbial and plant
growth.  Elements other than nitrogen such as calcium and magnesium also
accumulate in decomposing woody substrate.  (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg
16-par2)

Salvaging this area would remove woody duff, which regardless of type or
size, takes considerably longer to decompose than needle and leaf duff does.
Needles, leaves, and small twigs decompose faster than larger woody material
and essential elements are thereby recycled faster in the forest floor.
About 140 years are required for essential elements to cycle in large,
fallen trees and more than 400 years for such trees to become incorporated
into the forest floor; they therefore would interact with the plants and
animals of the forest floor and soil over a long period of forest and stand
successional history (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988. pg37-par1).

Salvaging this area would remove the capacity of the system to accumulate
nitrogen in decaying, fallen trees as well as other significant essential
elements such as calcium and magnesium.  Although nitrogen fixation in wood
is modest compared with that occurring in other substrates in forests, the
persistence of decaying wood allows small increments of nitrogen to accrue
over many decades (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 16).

Salvaging this area would remove wood that would further decompose which
would undergo changes in other chemical constituents and pH as well as
physical structure.  Very old, decayed wood can even become somewhat
humified and leave long lasting substrate resistant to further decay (Maser
and Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par 4).

Salvaging this area would remove trees, which would have been decaying
trees.  These trees would have comprised considerable accumulations of mass,
nutrients and elements.  (Maser and Trappe, 1984,pg16-par1).

Note: Some of the largest accumulations occur in the unmanaged forest of the
Pacific Northwest.  Coarse woody debris can range from 130 to 276 tons per
acre in stands from 100 to more than 1,000 years old.  Although here we are
concerned with Douglas fir, neither decaying wood nor research data are
unique to forests of the Pacific Northwest.  McFee and Stone (1966) Observed
that decaying wood persisted for more than 100 years in New York and others
pointed out that substantial accumulations of CWD in old-growth forest in
Poland.  (Just as Tionesta) These observations evidence the long-term
continuity of decaying trees as structural components in forest (Maser and
Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par1).

Salvaging this area would remove present and future decaying logs on or
which would become a part of the forest floor, which would have been a
reservoir for nutrients as well as essential elements.  (Page-Dumroese,
Harvey, Jurge