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Homeowner Forum / Lawn and Garden / July 2008Help please! Cement in pond
I have recently had a company edge the pond with stone. In carrying out this process, five tench I had in the pond have died After the work was carried out they were initially distressed, an sadly died towards the end of the day. I can only surmise that the cement from the work has entered the pon in sufficient quantity to cause polution? Is this a likely cause? There is also other wildlife living in the pond, newts frogs etc, and am worried as to the effect the cement has on them. What is the best way to go about cleaning up the pond so as not t cause any further harm to the remaining wildlife? Thank you in advance -- Christine_B > What is the best way to go about cleaning up the pond so as > not to cause any further harm to the remaining wildlife? if you think cement fell into the pond, first thing to do is take a pH reading. raw cement is very alkaline & a rapid pH change will kill fish & other wildlife. it won't do any pond plants any good either. i suspect that adjusting the pH (slowly!) back to a more moderate range will solve your problems. lee  SignatureLast night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. > > What is the best way to go about cleaning up the pond so as > > not to cause any further harm to the remaining wildlife? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > lee Sound advice. If high a slow water exchange may be in order. Something like 20 % every other day. Increase aerating if possible. Good Luck! Bill SignatureGarden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA http://dodd.senate.gov/index.php?q=node/4476 On Jun 26, 6:58�am, Christine_B <Christine_B. 2d95...@gardenbanter.co.uk> wrote: > I have recently had a company edge the pond with stone. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > What is the best way to go about cleaning up the pond so as not to > cause any further harm to the remaining wildlife? Why did they use cement (you probably mean concrete), portland cement and pond life don't mix. You hired a company that does masonary but they obviously know nothing about ponds, nor do you. That "cement" will leach into the pond for 20-30 years, maybe longer. Your only remedy is to carefully and completely remove that stone and "cement" coping. Properly set stonework is self-interlocking and needs no adhesive... why pay for natural stone if it ends up looking ridiculous when held together with an unnatural substance. You need to decide if you want a pond or a pool. > I have recently had a company edge the pond with stone. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > What is the best way to go about cleaning up the pond so as not to > cause any further harm to the remaining wildlife? Hi, Fresh concrete can upset the pH of the pond rapidly but (depending on how much fell in) you can probably make adjustments. First if you do not have a method to determine pH, GET IT. Get tests for KH (total alkalinity) and GH (general hardness) also. Get all the concrete possible out of the pond, assuming that some fell in. If the new edge is under water lower the pond level temporarily. I don't know what tench prefer but a stable pH is usually more desirable than a particular number. There could be other problems, perhaps they spilled something else in the pond. If KH is high (above about 200 ppm or 11 degrees) and pH is high (above 9), then use muriatic acid. Available at hardware and pool supply stores. Put 2 oz. acid in a five gallon bucket, fill with pond water, and disperse it throughout the pond. A dose of 2 ounces per 1000 gallons lowers KH by 1 degree (20 ppm) releasing it as CO2. CO2 suppresses respiration in fish, so the pond should be well aerated. Next day the pH and KH is tested again. Once KH is lowered, pH will follow. It shouldn't be necessary to lower KH below about 150 ppm (8 degrees). Two oz. per 1000 gallons is the maximum daily dose. If KH is low (below 100 ppm) and pH is high (above 9), instead add common baking soda. One-quarter pound per 1000 gallons increases KH by 1 degree. Once KH is 100-150 ppm (6 to 9 degrees), pH should stabilize near 8.4. You will have to keep monitoring and treating. HTH -_- how Signatureno NEWS is good yup. high pH, bring it down. however. baking soda blows off as CO2, need dolomitic limestone in the pond to increase hardness. whenever there is suspicion of poisoning start running water into the pond one end, let it overflow the other. If this is city water then need to have some kind of regulator like MELNOR AUTOMATIC WATER TIMER cheap, set it for X gallons and add dechlor (get buckets of this from aquatic ecosystems, sodium thioglycolate). INgrid >> I have recently had a company edge the pond with stone. >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >HTH -_- how > yup. high pH, bring it down. however. baking soda blows off as CO2, need > dolomitic > limestone in the pond to increase hardness. NaHCO3 + H+ ---> Na+ + H2O + CO2(gas) ---> Na+ + H2O Ca(OH)2 + 2(H+) ----> Ca++ + 2(H2O) Baking soda will work and it is a mild base but the sodium may present a problem. So use INgrid's approach and use calcium carbonate (limestone, chalk, a marble bust). The smaller the particle size, the quicker it will work (It dissolves fairly slowly.) If the pH is below 5, you may want to treat your pond with baking soda (stir and wait a couple of days and then test) and then withdraw some water into 5 gal. buckets (or larger) where you have the calcium carbonate, Wait 24 to 48 hr.s and return the liquid, not the solids, to the pond (repeat as needed). Don't add the solid calcium carbonate because it works slowly and you may over shoot pH 7 and the pond will go basic. > whenever there is suspicion of poisoning start running water into the pond > one end, [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > > >HTH -_- how SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related both chalk and marble will not reach equilibrium at a low enuf pH. It will continue to dissolve and drive pH up to 10. only limestone (and NOT slaked limestone) will reach equilibrium at a reasonable pH for fish. Up here in Milwaukee Wisconsin we have limestone quarries and quarry swimming holes with fish... LOL. Ingrid use calcium carbonate>(limestone, chalk, a marble bust). > > yup. high pH, bring it down. OK but you do this by dilution or by adding acid > however. baking soda blows off as CO2, Yes in the presence of acid. Is that what you mean? You wouldn't add baking soda if the pH is too high (ie alkaline) as it is alkaline and will make it worse. > > need dolomitic > > limestone in the pond to increase hardness. Why? What is wrong with soft water in a pond? What benefit is hard water for pond life? Dolomite is roughly calcium magnesium carbonate, that will tend to raise pH, not what is required in this case. > NaHCO3 + H+ ---> Na+ + H2O + CO2(gas) ---> Na+ + H2O > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > because it works slowly and you may over shoot pH 7 and the pond > will go basic. This is all fine for treating an acid pond. Portland cement and its products will make the pond too alkaline. David yes. add muriatic as recommended by someone else on the list, dilute and drip it in gradually. yes, baking soda dissociates to CO2 and H2O in the presents of acid. Actually goldfish and koi do well in hard water, but lakes are naturally soft, they just arent "softened". soft water is stripped of any buffering capacity, Ca+ and Mg+. that means the pH will swing wildly and that makes the fish suffer. in addition softening strips out chloride ions which are necessary to gill function, breathing. and softening adds scads of Na+ which can sometimes be so high it is toxic. http://tinyurl.com/5fsbu9 calcium and magnesium stabilize the HCO3- or carbonate hardness. it wont raise a high pH. OTOH, you are tyring to get the calcium out of the pond because there is a huge excess. it isnt a buffered calcium tho, which is what the problem is. the water out of the well at my mothers ponds is so full of calcium that the water is milky when the ponds are refilled after cleaning. but there is a buffer that prevents the calcium from locking up the chloride ions. INgrid >OK but you do this by dilution or by adding acid >Yes in the presence of acid. Is that what you mean? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Dolomite is roughly calcium magnesium carbonate, that will tend to raise pH, >not what is required in this case. > yes. add muriatic as recommended by someone else on the list, dilute and drip it in > gradually. yes, baking soda dissociates to CO2 and H2O in the presents of acid. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > toxic. http://tinyurl.com/5fsbu9 > snip Hi, The OP does not state any water parameters and muriatic may not be the cure. Use muriatic only if KH (alkalinity) is above 200ppm and pH is 9 or above. If KH is low and pH is 9 or above then baking soda will raise KH and lower pH. Keep adding baking soda (1/3lb per 1000 US gal)each day until KH reaches 150-200 ppm at which point pH should be about 8.4. OP's issue is probably moot now, if the problem was fish - killing bad then it's cured or they're dead. BTW never saw sodium thioglycolate used to neutralize chlorine, always used sodium thiosulphate. Not chemist enough to say it won't work just never heard it being used. L8R -_- how Signatureno NEWS is good > > yes. add muriatic as recommended by someone else on the list, dilute and > > drip it in [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > then it's cured or they're dead. > BTW never saw sodium thioglycolate used to neutralize chlorine, Chlorine forms pi bond with double bonded carbon? > always > used sodium thiosulphate. Chlorine forms pi bond with double bonded sulfur? > Not chemist enough to say it won't work just > never heard it being used. > > L8R -_- how Anybody, anybody? SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related you are correct. suffering CRAFT when I answered. Ingrid >> used sodium thiosulphate. Thank you all for your help, its very much appreciated. We will begin with testing the water and take things from there. Although... > You hired a company that does masonary but > they obviously know nothing about ponds, nor do you We actually hired a landscape gardening company and so assume ourselves to be in safe hands. The pond has flourished since we originally dug it out some years ag with fish happily breeding and various wildlife setting up home. Hel is appreciated but please reserve further comments. I realise it must be frustrating answering 'beginners' questions wit such a towering intellect such as your own but manners cost nothing. Just for future reference its Masonry NOT masonary. Did I say towerin intellect.... Again thak you to everyone who helped out -- Christine_B > Thank you all for your help, its very much appreciated. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You hired a company that does masonary but > > they obviously know nothing about ponds, nor do you It¹s the old distribution of y curve. Hope you and the pond prosper. Bill PS I'd add some extra water plants as they can balance mistakes too. SignatureGarden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA http://dodd.senate.gov/index.php?q=node/4476 > > You hired a company that does masonary but > > they obviously know nothing about ponds, nor do you <Snip> > I realise it must be frustrating answering 'beginners' questions with > such a towering intellect such as your own but manners cost nothing. > > Just for future reference its Masonry NOT masonary. Did I say towering > intellect.... Oh, that be our junkyard-dog of a boy, Shelly. Sorry, but for some reason the name Christian or Christine seems perturb his otherwise normal abysmally abrasive, foul behavior, but he does add balance to another wise stellar collection of gardeners;o) > Again thank you to everyone who helped out. Down boy, down! SignatureBilly Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related On Jun 27, 1:38�pm, Christine_B <Christine_B. 2daf...@gardenbanter.co.uk> wrote: > Thank you all for your help, its very much appreciated. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > -- > Christine_B Thank has an "n"... it's you who has poor manners, you're disingenous, you're an ignoranus, and you stink. "Sheldon" <PENMART01@aol.com> wrote in message news:254681a5-fcae-43a3-9c7c- >you're an ignoranus, and you stink. Another subtle touch of clever school-yard repartee from the opsimath. Only you know how long it is since you left primary (junior) school in the flesh but to many who read your words it might well have never happened. David |
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