Homeowner Forum / Construction / February 2010

On Feb 15, 9:01 am, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>
Yeah, I've read in a german magazine (www.spiegel.de) that even the best car
battery has no more energy than 2 pints of gas. To become viable, they have
to be 3 times as good and 3 times as cheap. Not to mention, that if you put
the pedal to the metal, the bat will drain in very little time. And of
course, it's worse efficiency to burn coal, generate electricity and
transmit, distribute it etc. over 5-6 transformation stages than using an
ICE with gasoline...

[...]

Moving the pollution from one place to another is, in itself, a laudable goal;
seen what the air looks like in LA or Chicago recently?

You're overlooking a few points in favor of the electric cars. First off, by
concentrating the emissions at the power plant, the air quality in most major
cities will be tremendously improved. Second, again by concentrating the
emissions in one place, it's easier to scrub them; one power plant producing
the electricity to power a million electric cars will likely produce much less
pollution than a million cars with internal combustion engines. Third, one
large power plant has the potential for economies of scale that a million
point sources lack. Fourth, and perhaps most important, the internal
combustion engine is terribly inefficient, since it derives all its power from
the mechanical energy of the expanding exhaust gases and wastes all of the
heat; coal-fired power plants are *far* more efficient.

On Feb 15, 12:16 pm, trad...@optonline.net wrote:

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Noticing that in the USA and also the UK the discussion about electric
vehicles so often mentions the production of electrcity by burning
natural gas, oil, or god forbid, coal definitely being the most
polluting, as witnessed by the UK getting rid of much of it's coal
burning by the 1960s, after several hundred years of industrial
production based on coal.

Only recently, heard once again, that old Yorkshire (England)
expression which use the slang word "brass" for money! Which says
"Where there's muck (industrial dirt, smoke, smog etc.)  there's brass
(money)"!

But there are many parts of the world that use hydro generated and or
more locally generated electrcity from wind power, solar etc. There
are for example some individual homes, in one part of Germany (that
country being presumably not as sunny as say the southern USA?) that
produce more electrcity from solar etc. than they consume. And by law,
there, it can be sold back into the public electric system. This does
mean, by the way, that there will not be times, when the roast is in
oven and the clothes dryer and/or clothes washer are operating they
will 'draw electricity from the grid'. But on an overall net basis
they put more energy from their built features such as solar cells,
back into the system,  than they draw!

In this particular part of Canada we use about 95%, soon to be 100%,
electrcity generated by hydro. Which then gets into discussion about
whether hydro generation IS truly 'green', or not!

But trying to knock down the electric car argument by always
'assuming' that generating electricity involves some sort of 'muck' is
incorrect. Electrcity from hydro generation in north eastern Canada,
e.g. 'Churchill Falls', the planned 'Lower Churchill River Project' in
Newfoundland - Labrador, 'James Bay' in northern Quebec etc. already
powers New York via connecting high voltage transmission lines.
Certain types of transmission line can also be run under the sea.

However having said that; the OP seems to be a link to some very
expensive plugs and cords?

Looking at the third example in the link, $600 for what appears to be
a plug, a special socket and a length of possibly 10 AWG flex seems
very expensive!!!!!!! The plug in the $600 kit for, example, looks
identical to the 30/50 amp plug on the 230 volt 4800 watt garage
heater that we bought recently, complete with plug and cord for less
than $70, including sales tax! And which we plug into the 230 volt
welder outlet in our garage to provide auxiliary heat in cold weather
while working on a vehicle. Even to 'make up' that plug/wire/socket
combination, even allowing that the special plug into the vehicle
might cost say $30, could probably be done for around $60 or less?

Some of the preliminary calculations seem to indicate that even in
this cold climate, where batteries do not function as well as in
warmer climes, an electric vehicle, for the mileage and distances that
this retiree drives could be highly practical!
And here where gasoline, for example, now costs, more than a dollar
litre (Roughly 3.8 litres to a US gallon) so we are talking at least
$4 per gallon, for regular; and where a 20 mile per gallon vehicle
costs say 20 cents per mile, for gasoline alone, the electric
equivalent, seeing that our domestic electricity cost is around 10
cents per kilowatt hour it could cost us 80 cents to one dollar to
completely recharge an electric car battery? That battery then giving
a range of say 60 miles for a cost of a couple of cents per mile. But
that seems, together with other savings too good to be true; and
probably is, whether one installs a suitable outlet in the garage or
not?

Contrary opinions welcomed.

On Feb 15, 9:16 am, trad...@optonline.net wrote:

Power plants convert a much higher percentage of fuel into energy than
any car that runs on gas can, a gas car actualy uses about 1/3rd of
the energy from gas to move it, It would be cleaner, and cleaner where
you need it in cities and roads. But batteries cost to much and dont
last.

When I go camping, I bring my zero emissions
electric heater for my tent. I plug it into the
generator that burns oil, and pumps out carbon
monoxide. But, the heater is zero emissions.

Same deal with the car. Except that manufacturing
of the car pollutes, and that the batteries
eventually have to be thrown out, and, and, and.

The second big omission is that you always hear
the media gushing over
this cars as "zero emissions".    Which is true
only if you
conveniently ignore that all this power still has
to be generated
someplace.

On 2/15/2010 7:16 AM trader4@optonline.net spake thus:

This point can't be emphasized enough, as it's true that the pinhead
media always seems to get this one wrong and leaves the mistaken
impression that "green" electric cars run on pixie dust or some such.

Just last night I heard a local news report about recovering methane
from landfills for use as fuel. While this is a good thing overall, the
stupid reporter (or editor) got away with saying that this would reduce
carbon dioxide emissions! Of course this is totally untrue: while the
methane would be captured instead of simply venting to the atmosphere,
the carbon dioxide would be released later when it was burned. All
that's being done is delaying the release of the CO2. Sheesh; are we
*really* that much a nation of idiots?

Now, you and I are on opposite sides of this debate in lots of ways
concerning the overall viability of renewable energy, nuclear power,
etc. But I agree 100% with you here. Such stupid oversights on the part
of the media (and even on the part of some who promote green energy) can
only set things back.

I agree. Electric cars are perfectly viable as second cars in a two car
family.

For many it would also be viable to use one to commute to work. Many people
commute less than 30 miles and the car sits idle all day in the car park.

And again, this is an example of comparing apples to oranges.   These
electric vehicles are relatively small cars.  And they should be
compared to similar size fuel efficient cars, not the average gas
vehicle.   There are lots of car choices getting 30 city, 45 highway
or better.    The Toyota Prius gets 51 city 48 highway giving a fuel
cost of about $12.  Here in the northeast with electric at 17c kwh,
and using your above math, the fuel cost on the Prius vs the electric
is a wash here.

But I bet the Prius is a far more drivable vehicle, capable of higher
sustained highway speeds, etc. and doesn't have the obvious drawbacks
for the user that the electric car has.