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Homeowner Forum / Construction / December 2008Doorbell always uses electricity!
Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones, etc. These things add up... I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now. I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the transformer. > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > which were going to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon > as it receives power from the transformer. It's probably stamped right on it but I never looked. Any idea how many watts it's uses in it's standby state? With the cost of the parts, romex, etc. The break even date is probably some where in the year 2029. You know, third year of the Gonzalez administration. He took over from the Castro administration.  SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . It's probably stamped right on it but I never looked. Any idea how many watts it's uses in it's standby state? >>Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >>electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > It's probably stamped right on it but I never looked. Any idea how many > watts it's uses in it's standby state? This whole thread is about chasing the "little yellow hole in the snow." It's trivial. When the bell is not ringing, the current that is measured is largely reactive or imaginary current. It is the current determined by the transformer's magnetizing inductance. The only dissipation is some small core heating and trivial wire losses. The true dissipation is far less than what most are calculating by multiplying measured volts and measured current. Worry about something important...like preserving the US Constitution. Boden >>>Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always >>>using electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Boden Yellow holes in snow are not trivial. Watch out where the huskies go and dont you eat that yellow snow. [Frank Zappa] > Worry about something important...like preserving the US Constitution. > > Boden Didn't you hear? That just got torn up and thrown away. SignatureArt > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the > transformer. Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in electricity. Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet pavement and they gey shocked by 120V. You probably spent more in the material than if you let the Xfmr stay on for 20 years. Now how are you going to deal with the TV, fridge, phone, alarm clock, microwave. Wait don't forget VCR/DVD player, cable box, heating system, computer, sprinkler timer, >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet >pavement and they gey shocked by 120V. Geeze, I replaced the transformer powered doorbell in my house 10 years ago with a 15 buck wireless chimer. Couple screws and it's done. Replaced the AAA batteries once in all that time. --Vic >> Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in >> electricity. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > years ago with a 15 buck wireless chimer. Couple screws and it's > done. Replaced the AAA batteries once in all that time. $15 at 25c/year means you'll recover your costs in 60 years. But the batteries cost, oh, $1.00 every ten years, so that's another six bucks which will take another 12 years to recover. But 12 years means one more set of batteries, which requires another four years. Let's see, now (mumble, mumble, carry-the-three), ah, yes. Your wireless solution will save you money after a mere 73 years of service. This does not count lost opportunity costs of the original $15. >>> Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in >>> electricity. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Your wireless solution will save you money after a mere 73 years of service. >This does not count lost opportunity costs of the original $15. But my chimes sound better. Aren't esthetics worth anything? Do the math. --Vic >>> Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in >>> electricity. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Your wireless solution will save you money after a mere 73 years of service. >This does not count lost opportunity costs of the original $15. Delete from that cost the cost of repairing/replacing whatever was wrong with the original system (cost of transformer, button, chime and wire plus labour to replace) He might still be saving money. >>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > --Vic Doorbells once used carbon-zinc batteries. Their shelf life wasn't good. That explains the change to transformers. I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines, which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of batteries would last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might leave frustrated before I realized my chime was out of service. How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace. >>>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >>>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could >outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace. Haven't had that problem like that. Just checked to see if it worked, since I don't get a lot of visitors. It works. The receiver uses 2 C's, so I was wrong on that. The pushbutton is unlighted. You can hear the chimes from outside, so you know it's working. But there's a knocker on the door too, just in case. Ending my part in doorbells and knockers discussion. That's all I know. Carry on. --Vic > I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines, > which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The > problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of batteries would > last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might leave frustrated > before I realized my chime was out of service. Why use battery-powered chimes (as opposed to transmitters)? My wireless chimes plug into outlets (upstairs and downstairs chimes). Being as they make noise, it's not like precise location is critical. The transmitters use a "N" battery every 3-4 years. You do have to check occasionally to make sure it's still working. The operating cost (75 cents per year for batteries, and whatever the line draw is) is probably more than a transformer-operated bell but we're way down in the noise range of expense. Dave >> I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines, >> which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Dave If I went wireless again, I use an outlet-powered receiver. I'd be concerned about its service life and how much power it sucked. > If I went wireless again, I use an outlet-powered receiver. I'd be > concerned about its service life and how much power it sucked. I've had one in service for at least a decade. It's outlasted several of the button/transmitter units. And a second (upstairs) for 3-4 years. The nameplate current is 50ma (which would be 6W) on one, and about twice that on the other, but I think that must be when actually making noise, as I couldn't measure *any* current drain. Dave >> I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines, >> which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Dave The thing is, there is a doorbell that does not need any electrical power. Simply mount a nice looking brass bell on the wall next to the door, using a bracket. Drill a small hole in the wall a couple feet above the bell, and attach a piece of nylon string to the bell. Push the other end of the string thru the hole in the wall and let it hang outside. Put a nice wooden bead on the end of the string. Then place a sign that reads "PULL STRING FOR DOORBELL". Cost: The price of the bell, bracket, string and bead. No further costs for life, and no electrical energy needed ever. > The thing is, there is a doorbell that does not need any electrical > power. Simply mount a nice looking brass bell on the wall next to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Cost: The price of the bell, bracket, string and bead. No further > costs for life, and no electrical energy needed ever. If: 1) you live in a climate where you don't mind a hole between the inside and the outside (at -30F with a stiff wind you want as few holes as possible), 2) you don't have an enclosed porch, which would put the bell on the porch outside the main door, 3) you can hear a bell by the entry even with one floor, several closed doors, and perhaps some other sources of audio like kids or radios in between. So I can't knock your solution, it is an elegant one for people who live in mild climates (I can even go one better there, if you always keep your windows open people can just call for you through the open window). But it won't work for everybody. Dave >> The thing is, there is a doorbell that does not need any electrical >> power. Simply mount a nice looking brass bell on the wall next to the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Dave Actually the hole only needs to be the same size as the rope as long as the rope has a little grease on it (vaseline). One could also use a cable like the throttle cable on a lawnmower, and caulk aeound the outer shell. In fact, using that method, the cable could go straight in to the bell, and have a decorative handle on the outside. >The thing is, there is a doorbell that does not need any electrical >power. Simply mount a nice looking brass bell on the wall next to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Cost: The price of the bell, bracket, string and bead. No further >costs for life, and no electrical energy needed ever. You just reminded me of the doorbell at "Neighborhood Bike Works", AKA "The Bike Church". That outfit uses some space at a church. There is a sign sying, as best as I remember: "Pull brake lever to ring doorbell". They have a handlebar mounted onto something or other close to the handrail for the stairway for that offbeat entrance into the church complex. The brake lever is connected to a brake cable, that is routed through a small diameter hole in the exterior wall. Apparently, the other end of the brake cable pulls the lever on a bicycle bell that is suitably mounted. - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com) >> The thing is, there is a doorbell that does not need any electrical >> power. Simply mount a nice looking brass bell on the wall next to the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com) My favorite doorbell buttons: http://tinyurl.com/yr7e8k http://tinyurl.com/6a9fwj TDD >> Geeze, I replaced the transformer powered doorbell in my house 10 >> years ago with a 15 buck wireless chimer. Couple screws and it's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might leave frustrated > before I realized my chime was out of service. I don't understand why this is a problem. > How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could > outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace. Or rechargeables. The precharged NiMH ones seem to hold their charge for a long time. Ours just emits a strangled sort of buzz; replacing it with a cheap wireless one would be a definite advantage if it weren't for the fact that our friends all know to knock -- anybody who rings the "bell" only wants to convert us to something or sell us something. SignatureCheers, Bev ================================================================= "There's an apocryphal (I hope not !) story about a Bristol bike thief found cold, wet and bedraggled one morning, D locked by the neck to a local bridge." -- Anon > I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines, > which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could > outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace. How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any source? > > I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines, > > which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any source? But...but...but...what is the payback? A brass door knocker will run some bucks and if you only spend 25 cents/yr on electric.... Harry K >> How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any >> source? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Harry K Pride of ownership. Just think how jealous your neighbors will be when they see you polishing that brass on a nice warm autumn day. >>> How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any >>> source? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Pride of ownership. Just think how jealous your neighbors will be when they > see you polishing that brass on a nice warm autumn day. I have a real bell with a pull rope. If I had to do it over I might just leave the axe by the door. They could just chop their way in, same as the fire department does, if I didn't hear the knocking. Jeff >> I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines, >> which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any source? Or the old "crank" bell - or the one with the plunger you push (kinda like an old Klaxon horn) > >>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > >>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Make your own batteries? As mentioned before; in the 1950s I found the remnants of of some original LeClanche cells. Leclanche cells were renewable. A glass jar with a carbon stick positive anode that never wore out, immersed in a strong solution of alkali (called Sal-ammoniac) and a zinc plate negative. Wires were attached to the carbon and zinc. When the zinc wore away and/or the Sal-ammoniac dried out spares could be purchased at a local hardware/iron-mongers store. With todays low power solid state (transistor) devices perhaps we could make our own batteries out of sea water, vinegar or household bleach and scrap iron???????? Now if I could only make one (several) big enough to run those 'dud battery' cordless drills I have lying around!!!!!! :-) well I suppose you could use a battery to power the normal doorbell button with no light and trip a solid state relay, that would power the transformer just to ring bell. taken futher a solar panel could keep the battery charged. or heck go solar completely with LED lights you might be able to have the button light up:) probably cost a few hundred bucks, to save a dollar or two a year. put the solar panel somewhere it cant be stolen. they can be costly. someone has too much time on their hands:( cut out a decent candy bar a day, at a buck each and save 300 to 400 bucks a year on 11/20/2008 8:03 AM terry said the following: > >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > battery' cordless drills I have lying around!!!!!! :-) > How about the electrodes being stuck in a potato? :-) SignatureBill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ >>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >--Vic Why not just a plain-old fashioned door knocker? No batteries, works well, very reliable, even works if the power is off, and it's *green* (especially if made from cheap brass imported from China!) > Why not just a plain-old fashioned door knocker? No batteries, works > well, very reliable, even works if the power is off, and it's *green* > (especially if made from cheap brass imported from China!)- the cheao chinese brass was a big polluter in china ands added to world pollution With any luck, he'll also remember the computer, the hair dryer, the pump in the fish tank, and all the other big power drains. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in electricity. Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet pavement and they gey shocked by 120V. You probably spent more in the material than if you let the Xfmr stay on for 20 years. Now how are you going to deal with the TV, fridge, phone, alarm clock, microwave. Wait don't forget VCR/DVD player, cable box, heating system, computer, sprinkler timer, > With any luck, he'll also remember the computer, the hair dryer, the pump > in the fish tank, and all the other big power drains. Don't forget the clock on the microwave. SignatureCheers, Bev ================================================================= "There's an apocryphal (I hope not !) story about a Bristol bike thief found cold, wet and bedraggled one morning, D locked by the neck to a local bridge." -- Anon >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always >> using electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > microwave. Wait don't forget VCR/DVD player, cable box, heating > system, computer, sprinkler timer, Gotta dig back in my 60's damaged memory synapses but the AC wires in the walls generate an electromagnetic field. Metal that passes through these fields gets induced voltage. So, if you have any metal in what you wear or carry in your pocket you're sucking "some" level of power. Maybe can save another .04 a year by instituting a buck naked policy indoors. Huh? > Gotta dig back in my 60's damaged memory synapses but the AC wires in the > walls generate an electromagnetic field. Metal that passes through these > fields gets induced voltage. So, if you have any metal in what you wear > or carry in your pocket you're sucking "some" level of power. Maybe can > save another .04 a year by instituting a buck naked policy indoors. Huh? Depending on the climate zone you're in (I keep my house at ~55F in the winter, and treatment for hypothermia will eat up your savings). In the right climate, a buck naked policy could be well worth it in entertainment value alone. Dave >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >microwave. Wait don't forget VCR/DVD player, cable box, heating >system, computer, sprinkler timer, Go "Amish" > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the > transformer. My first thought when reading this was "ok...so we'd save a few pennies a month". But I investigated and found a rather interesting read related to your theory where the author actually tested the doorbell transformer using a Kill-A-Watt: http://www.newenglandbreeze.com/nl/TEM20080901.html Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time and effort to change. >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always >> using electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time > and effort to change. Great... I'll eat the three bucks a year and take the beating for being an environmental criminal. >>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always >>> using electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Great... I'll eat the three bucks a year and take the beating for being >an environmental criminal. The KillA Watt does not compensate for the terrible power factor of an idle transformer - It will be indicating significantly higher than the actual power disipation of the transformer. The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of the real draw. Put a power factor correction capacitor across the transformer primary and I'll bet the KillAWatt reads less than 1 watt. > The KillA Watt does not compensate for the terrible power factor of > an idle transformer - It will be indicating significantly higher than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > The 4400, which I think is their base model, is supposed to show volts, amps, volt-amps, power factor, watts, Hertz, kilowatt hours, and hours. Accuracy is advertised at 0.2%. Almost all customers love it. I was about to buy one until I read a review by someone who claims to have bought several for an R&D lab. He found them inaccurate when new, and they were likely to freeze when current exceeded 7 amps. This made them useless for anything with a starting surge that high. All failed between 30 and 50 hours, giving wild readings or none at all. I believe him because his description is good. It reminds me of problems I've had with DMMs that can measure up to 10 amps. If you run several amps through a resistor with little mass, I suppose sudden temperature changes can lead to microscopic cracks, which affect accuracy and cause increasingly fast deterioration. I imagine Kill-a-watt's manufacturer could solve the problem with R&D. [snip] >The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of >the real draw. Can you get doorbell buttons with LEDs? [snip] Signature34 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." >[snip] > >>The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of >>the real draw. > >Can you get doorbell buttons with LEDs? The incandescent lamp probably consumes about 1/4 watt maybe less, while the idling transformer consumes a couple watts. I still do delivery work and I have done so for many years, and I have only seen one transformer-powered doorbell button with an LED. The LED was a model with efficiency similar to or less than even the models of incandescents lamps being used in doorbell buttons, as used in doorbell buttons, with intended life expectancy of decades. The LED appears to me to be from the 1970's or possibly early 1980's. - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com) On Nov 19, 6:21 pm, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the > transformer. My first thought when reading this was "ok...so we'd save a few pennies a month". But I investigated and found a rather interesting read related to your theory where the author actually tested the doorbell transformer using a Kill-A-Watt: http://www.newenglandbreeze.com/nl/TEM20080901.html Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time and effort to change. ============================================= $3.15/year. Pretty good deal. Olddog >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time > and effort to change. yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I doubt that an unlighted doorbell switch even draws a watt. It's a transformer but it has *no* load on it at all except for the brief moment it's pushed. Much ado about Nothing. One watt for a year would be about a dollar a year. The payback on all the OP's effort will take a Long time. <g> > yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I doubt > that an unlighted doorbell switch even draws a watt. It's a transformer > but it has *no* load on it at all except for the brief moment it's pushed. > Much ado about Nothing. But a transformer with no load consumes power which is largely given off as heat. You can observe this by feeling the transformer. Such loads collectively add up to a lot of waste. If you have purchased any devices that use external power supplies (cell phone charger, router in recent times you will notice that that they no longer use transformers and come with much more efficient switching power supplies. When it comes to power waste slow and steady wins the race. > One watt for a year would be about a dollar a year. The payback > on all the OP's effort will take a Long time. <g> on 11/20/2008 7:48 AM George said the following: >> yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I >> doubt [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > transformers and come with much more efficient switching power > supplies. When it comes to power waste slow and steady wins the race. My transformer is mounted just outside the power box in the basement. Since all the heat in my finished basement where my office is located is supplied by the ambient heat of the boiler and water heater, it adds to the ambient heat. Right now, it is 28º F outside and it is 66º F inside the basement. SignatureBill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ >> yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I doubt >> that an unlighted doorbell switch even draws a watt. It's a transformer [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> One watt for a year would be about a dollar a year. The payback >> on all the OP's effort will take a Long time. <g> The fact that my doorbell transformer is not remotely warm to the touch would indicate to me it is not dissipating 3 watts of power (and it IS powering an incandescent lighted push button) The lighted button helps find the key in the dark, so I don't really care if it costs me $3 a year. > >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > >> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Such a door bell transformer is typically capable of a maximum of 7 watts or less when it is actually ringing the bell or door chime. Many are not designed for continuous use. Next time I have spare moment will measure the amount of electrcity such a transformer takes in it' 'idle' state. It's most likely a few milliamps. Well lets say 10 milliamps (A 100th of one amp) to be generous to a fairly low grade transformer. One 100th of an amp at 115 volts = 1.15 watts per hour, 27.6 watt hours per day or 10,074 watt hours per year. That's just over 10 kilowatt hours per year. Although I doubt it is that high? At my cost of electrcity (ten cents per kilowatt hour) that's just about one dollar per year. A saving of one dollar per year (over 20 years) could probably amortize a capital saving at the start of that period of around $12. Spend more that and it not economic. Our transformer which has been in place for the last 38 years does run slightly warm. In this cool climate that warmth does very, very slightly, but insignificantly, contribute to the electric house heating. Probably less so than normally leaving the bath and shower water to cool down to house temperature. Seemed like rather pointless exercise? > Such a door bell transformer is typically capable of a maximum of 7 > watts or less when it is actually ringing the bell or door chime. Many [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > water to cool down to house temperature. > Seemed like rather pointless exercise? Actually, a big transformer that draws an amp with no load may use less power than a little transformer that draws half an amp. It's resistance from the copper windings and the iron core that uses power. Without resistance, the current is 90 degrees out of phase with supplied voltage, and that means no power. I think the solution is a DC chime with a modern wall wart. To get the Energy Star rating, a wall wart up to 50 watts can't use more than 0.3 watts idling. That would mean about 25 cents a year for electricity. My remaining question is how long a particular wall wart would last. >> Such a door bell transformer is typically capable of a maximum of 7 >> watts or less when it is actually ringing the bell or door chime. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > electricity. My remaining question is how long a particular wall wart > would last. Good idea. Everybody has boxes full of wall-warts whose original device has passed on. Shouldn't be too much of a problem to modify one of the right voltage. >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time >and effort to change. One can be sure that light used about 2.75 watts of the three that the user measured. Not that I'd trust a toy like the 'Kill-A-Watt' to make accurate power measurements, especially at those lower power levels... <g> >I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from >this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the >transformer. Congratulations. You've just made a potentially lethal accident waiting to happen. And somehow I suspect your insurance won't pay if someone dies. I would STRONGLY suggest you do one of 2 things. 1. Rewire that doorbell to it's original configuration. or 2. Put a GFCI into the circuit Either way I think would be safe. Option 1 of course would be cheaper, but if you insist on saving the few pennies worth of electricity, then option 2 would work. And it would be a rather interesting experiment to see how often the GFCI trips. >>I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from >>this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the >>transformer. >Congratulations. You've just made a potentially lethal accident waiting to >happen. And somehow I suspect your insurance won't pay if someone dies. >I would STRONGLY suggest you do one of 2 things. > 1. Rewire that doorbell to it's original configuration. >or > 2. Put a GFCI into the circuit A gfci won't deal with the issue of low voltage wiring carrying 110. It is a fire waiting to happen, especially if there is any possibility of rodents. It is unfunckingbelievable what people will do to trim off a ten cent/year cost. That's right. Maybe ten cents in an entire year. maybe. The cost of the pushbutton guarantees that the change will never ever pay for itself. And that isn't counting the insane fire hazzard. >>>I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from >>>this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >A gfci won't deal with the issue of low voltage wiring carrying 110. It is a >fire waiting to happen, especially if there is any possibility of rodents. The OP claims to have rewired the entire circuit with romex... He used 14 AWG, though considering how little real thinking he did, I'd suspect anything and everything he did. >It is unfunckingbelievable what people will do to trim off a ten cent/year >cost. And thinkg "Wow, what a good guy I am, so smart!" >That's right. Maybe ten cents in an entire year. >maybe. That's my calculation too. >The cost of the pushbutton guarantees that the change will never ever pay >for itself. Don't ignore the cost of rewiring the button, the romex, the new box, and the labor. Like I said earlier, payback is sometime about the time hell freezes over, assuming it can. >And that isn't counting the insane fire hazzard. Let's be thankful that he's not living near us! (At least I hope not...) And what was your electric bill last month? My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big things which all add up. 1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14 This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can make quite a difference if you know how to add. This project was paid for by money I am saving on my electric bill. And it was only about $8 because the transformer is in a closet by the door, so short wire run. So $120 savings minus $8 leaves me with $112 *extra* money actually. Everything was installed and wired to code. Metal box and brass plate are grounded, on GFCI circuit (wet location), wire is 14 gauge romex (regular electrical wiring, not doorbell wiring), and the momentary push button switch is rated at 120VAC (not a low voltage doorbell button). This is my 401K. What better way to go into retirement than to set yourself up for a low cost of living! My electric rates went up 13 percent just this year. How much will they go up in the next 20 years? Basically there has been a trend to manufacture products which always use electricity. I'm reversing that trend at my house. I turn this stuff off when not in use (power strips with switches on them). And switches similar to this... http://www.orphanespresso.com/images/Illuminated%20wall%20switch.jpg > And what was your electric bill last month? Oh, I dunno, a couple of hundred dollars. We have an outdoor hot tub, so the power consumption of doorbells and light bulbs really is in the noise. Cindy Hamilton > And what was your electric bill last month? > > My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done > in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big > things which all add up. Wow that $120 is half my average total monthly energy bill for this 4 bedroom all-electric house in a cold climate! What do you use for heating? Gas (said to be cheaper) not available here. And oil just too expensive and too much of a liability and maintenance expense. A neighbour (also all electric house, as most are here) has gone all CFLs but says it makes very little difference to their electric bill. CFLs make sense for outdoor locations so maybe when our long life incandescent burns out (after several years) will try one outside. Can't use CFLs in our two motion sensor fixtures, but those only come on for short periods when activated. >And what was your electric bill last month? >My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done >in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big >things which all add up. You didn't trim $120/month by eliminating three cent/month transformers. >1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14 >This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a >particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can >make quite a difference if you know how to add. I also know that spending two hundred hours to trim three dollars a year off one's electric bill is insanity. Turn the thermostat two degrees and it'll outweigh removing every single transformer in the house. >>And what was your electric bill last month? > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Turn the thermostat two degrees and it'll outweigh removing every >single transformer in the house. And instead of driving all over town to save $0.05 a gallon on fuel, drive less, don't haul junk in the car, drive an efficient vehicle, keep it tuned and the tires inflated, and stay home more. >And what was your electric bill last month? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >short wire run. So $120 savings minus $8 leaves me with $112 *extra* money >actually. Your bell transformer was using $120 worth of electricity? That must have been one hell of a big transformer, and an even bigger bell! >Everything was installed and wired to code. Metal box and brass plate are >grounded, on GFCI circuit (wet location), wire is 14 gauge romex (regular [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >This is my 401K. What better way to go into retirement than to set yourself >up for a low cost of living! Try considering a cost/benefit analysis next time then do something that is meaningful. Bottom line is that you saved perhaps a dollar or two a year if you eliminated the door-bell transformer, not that sillyi $120 you are quoting! >My electric rates went up 13 percent just this year. How much will they go >up in the next 20 years? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >to this... >http://www.orphanespresso.com/images/Illuminated%20wall%20switch.jpg > And what was your electric bill last month? > > My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done Eek! My electric bill is around $40-45 total for my house, and I've got an old refrigerator and several computers that run 24/7. But gas heat. Dave > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the > transformer. I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications division of the local power company. This was back when they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually had to know something about electronics. They would get electronic interference complaints which were often traced to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and one that many people don't even think of today. TDD >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > TDD Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that. If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a 60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it can cause interference at radio frequencies? Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? <G> Jeff SignatureJeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight. >> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Jeff According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think it happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates. >>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think it > happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates. I'm no EE, but I would guess that most of the in-house interference is back down along the power lines, not through the air. I know that on the baby shortwave I use to AM-band DX myself to sleep at night, when some unknown something in my house (or one of the neighbor's houses on the same pole can) is running, I can't get S**t to come in. But if I unplug the wall wart and run on batteries it comes in fine, as long as the unplugged cord is over a foot from the radio. Intermittent as hell, and annoying. -- aem sends... >>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think it > happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates. If the Guberment says so it must be so. I just don't believe it. >>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > If the Guberment says so it must be so. I just don't believe it. Several electric utilities say so. It can also come from microarcs in transformers on poles. When they get a complaint, they check poles with an ultrasound detector to pick up noise from an arc. When a doorbell transformer fails, I imagine it's usually an open primary. When it first opens, I imagine the vibration of the transformer could keep the break arcing indefinitely. >>>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >>>> poles on nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? >>>> <G> >>> According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell >>> transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other >>> household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. Yes. >>> I think it happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates. Nope, that cant produce electrical interference. >> If the Guberment says so it must be so. I just don't believe it. > Several electric utilities say so. Not that last bit of yours they dont. > It can also come from microarcs in transformers on poles. When they get a complaint, they check poles with an > ultrasound detector to pick up noise from an arc. Different effect entirely. > When a doorbell transformer fails, I imagine it's usually an open primary. Yes, because thats the thinnest wire. > When it first opens, I imagine the vibration of the > transformer could keep the break arcing indefinitely. Nope, you wont get vibration if its got an open primary. You dont even have enough current to maintain the arc. Completely different to pole transformers. >>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > If the Guberment says so it must be so. I just don't believe it. There's always something new to learn.... When I asked for a cite I was thinking only of properly operating doorbell equipment. I located this FCC cite: http://tinyurl.com/63ob78 (It's on page 14 of the .pdf document.) It sayss there's a thermostatic overload inside (some?) doorbell xformers designed to protect them from overheating and starting a fire if the doorbell button sticks on - or there's a short in the secondary side wiring. The report says that those thermal overloads (which I expect break the 120 volt primary circuit.) cycle off and back on around once every seven seconds and that the inductive spark at its contacts can propogate through house wiring and cause flashes of interference on a tv or "static clicks" in radios. Who woulda thunk it? I wonder how long that cycling mode would continue before those thermal overload contacts got burned enough to stop connecting and leave an open circuit there. That's the second time I've made a mistake this year...Thank G_d it's almost December. <G> Jeff SignatureJeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight. >>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think > it happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates. Interference from a neighbors transformer is rampant in that when people realize it uses 3 bucks of electricity a year to run they buy a couple of hundred feet of copper cable and conduit (so it's code compliant) and illegaly trench it to the neighbors power. >> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Jeff Do you know what voltage most (USA) doorbells operate on? TDD >>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > TDD twenty volts or under, while thermostat transformers are typically twenty four volts. >>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > twenty volts or under, while thermostat transformers are typically > twenty four volts. I believe I asked Jeff. Do you know what your name is? TDD >>>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >TDD You didn't ask Jeff personally. Had you done so, it would have been an email, instead you asked a general question on Usenet, and someone was nice enough to reply with good information. And, yes, we know what your name is: "a.shole". >>>>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > nice enough to reply with good information. And, yes, we know what > your name is: "a.shole". I didn't ask you either. You obviously missed the point of the question, it was a little dig. I did not ask the general either. *snicker* TDD >>>>>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>>>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >TDD You're still an a.shole... >>>>>>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>>>>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > You're still an a.shole... I consider myself to be an actinic sphincter. It sounds more professional. People who know my mother call me SOB. TDD >>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >TDD I've got 3 different ones floating around - 12, 16, and 24 volts AC. (They would work just as well on lower voltage DC) >>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I've got 3 different ones floating around - 12, 16, and 24 volts AC. > (They would work just as well on lower voltage DC) Dang! Nobody seemed to get the little dig at Jeff. What you will find are 6, 8, 10, 12, 16 and 24 volts AC. Some really old stuff will be DC dry cell powered but only if the owner wants to keep it original for nostalgic or antique collecting purposes. Most of the doorbell transformers I install have triple taps for 8, 16 and 24 volts. Many doorbells will need a 10 volt transformer and if you need 24 volts to ring your ding dong you're either deaf or have a seriously complicated system. I have setup some serious systems for industrial and commercial buildings by making use of the very loud and fun to play with devices manufactured by Edwards Signaling which now belongs to GE. My personal favorite: http://tinyurl.com/5zkoow TDD > My personal favorite: > > http://tinyurl.com/5zkoow Now THAT's my kind of "doorbell"! Deaf people on the 10th floor and all the <ahem> "residents" of the nearby cemetery will take notice. Signature:) JR >> My personal favorite: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Deaf people on the 10th floor and all the <ahem> "residents" of the > nearby cemetery will take notice. I had a friend who was having problems with Bulgarians stealing the copper and aluminum out of his small apartment complex. I took a motion sensing floodlight and an Edwards 120 volt square fire horn which we installed at the rear of the apartments. One night he was awakened by the wonderfully loud obnoxious sound of that horn accompanied by some equally loud screams and cursing in the local Bulgarian dialect. The next morning he found a lot of blood, bits of dark flesh and torn black clothing on the barbed wire fence. For some reason his losses to the vandalizing thieves abated. TDD I have to agree, thats a doorbell >>>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications >>>>> division of the local power company. This was back when [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > TDD > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the > transformer. i have a door knocker. My old house had a hand-cranked through-the-door doorbell. No annoying ground currents to kill the Jehovah's Witnesses. .max SignatureThis signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation. >> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > .max I had a big brass Taiwanese taxi horn on the door to my apartment which was at the top of an enclosed stairwell. The booming sound it made when someone squeezed that big old black rubber bulb was breathtaking. Heck that was 35 years ago, I don't recall what became of that damn thing but I wish I still had it. Jehovah's Witnesses are fun to mess with. I had a big black cape and cap with some horns. In my best Boris Karloff voice I would invite them in explaining that I was in need of a good sacrifice. Have you ever seen a Jehovah Witness run? TDD > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power > from the transformer. C'mon dude. I'm still working on CFLs for the whole house. Ace is finally carrying CFLs for those overhead recessed lights. My house is a bit from the street and faces away from the street. Rural area, no street lights. The lit doorbell is the only lit beacon guiding one to the front door. Really helpful on a no moonlit night. Some of the stuff that is still lit off when "off" is keeping information in a memory chip. The easy solution, if they ever decide to get "green", is to do it like on PCs. Put that information using volatile memory powered by a long-lasting watch battery. The circuit also has a built-in clock for maintaining accurate time. That's why you can unplug your PC from the wall for awhile, plug it back in. The time should still be accurate if the onboard battery is up to snuff. Cable and satellite receivers have to recover network communication and verify user authenticity when turned on. The satellite receiver that I use is uncomfortably hot to the touch, so its using some significant power compared to say a digital clock. Same when "off". SignatureDave > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the > transformer. Great idea, but a bit over-built. Just run a 120 line to the doorbell switch, remove the switch entirely and put a metal cap on it. It'll use no power whatsoever. Then when someone pushes the button they'll get the sh*t shocked out of them and when you hear the yelling you'll know you have a visitor. It's a much simpler design and will give the same results. >Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using >electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the >transformer. And probably spent more money on something that is perhaps unsafe than if you'd just let it be... (IMHO!) At rest, with no secondary current, a properly designed transformer will draw virtually no primary current. We're talking perhaps a quarter watt max, usually less. Now, at a quarter watt, that's six watt-hours per day, or 186 watt hours per month. At $0.15 per KWh, you are talking perhaps $0.03 on the electric bill each month. Now, what's the payback for your project? Say you spent $30 on the romex and switch and box (probably spent more) you'll get your money back, oh, about the time hell freezes over! Another prime example of people acting without thinking. Just like every other knee-jerk reaction to a percieved (and non-existant) problem. > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the > transformer. Hi, So what is the pay back time for the materials you used? The transformer when idle uses very small amount of energy. Turning it on/off frequently may shorten it's life. computers, most appliances draws small amount of energy when idle. Automobiles are same. Do you see decreased mount in power bill as a result? I pay 7 cents for 1KW/h. For that door bell to use 1KW/h will be quite long time. MTW, our house has motorozied chime palying Westminster bells. I went through a lot of the replies, the one thing no one thought of is the EMF pulse through the transformer when its powered up and down quickly, it's sorta like a old style igition coil, there is a pulse of voltage then the magneitic field colapases, and having full line voltage at a doorbell button outside where it may get wet, exposed to the weather is not a good idea either, but if one realy wants to go green, go with the old fashioned door knocker, but when we remodeled and put the front door in, I installed a wired doorbell button and all. > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power > from the transformer. > I went through a lot of the replies, the one thing no one thought of is the > EMF pulse through the transformer when its powered up and down quickly, it's [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > - Show quoted text - EMF pulse, you worry too much. Doorbell transformers are highly reliable only had one fail in my lifetime. I was about 10 when it got noisey and warm so i replaced it. want to walk thru our former home someday, wonder if its still in use. it got noisey and pretty warm, a fond memory of a big fix at the time That pulse can pack a pretty good hit, want to try something, flash a 9 volt batt on the low voltage side of a doorbell transformer, and feel what you get on the other side. that pulse can back feed through the house wiring, and posiblilty zap something else. Thats all I was worried about. On Nov 21, 7:21?am, "Craig M" <craig_6...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > I went through a lot of the replies, the one thing no one thought of is > the [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > - Show quoted text - EMF pulse, you worry too much. Doorbell transformers are highly reliable only had one fail in my lifetime. I was about 10 when it got noisey and warm so i replaced it. want to walk thru our former home someday, wonder if its still in use. it got noisey and pretty warm, a fond memory of a big fix at the time > That pulse can pack a pretty good hit, want to try something, flash a 9 volt > batt on the low voltage side of a doorbell transformer, and feel what you > get on the other side. > that pulse can back feed through the house wiring, and posiblilty zap > something else. > Thats all I was worried about. I used to do that with a AA cell and a transformer made to energize two conductors of a telephone cable to light a dial. Occasionally I found an unsuspecting person to hold the plug. I also used to enjoy putting my tongue on the terminals of a 9 volt battery. The doorbell might absorb some of the pulse, but not as well as a resistive load. I agree that if you didn't get shocked pressing the button, you might get shocked releasing it. |
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