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Homeowner Forum / Construction / August 2008Submittal problem
Guys, I have a quick question. Lets say you are GC. Windows manufacturer prepares windows schedule submittal for you, but windows shown on submittal are smaller than those on drawings. You send this submittal to the architect. 4 weeks later - still no response. You tell the architect that you'll start framing in 4 weeks (smaller rough openings) if he doesn't tell you to not to do so. Does that make sense? Shouldn't you wait for this submittal to be approved before you proceed with framing? Especially that you know that it's not the same thing as on drawings? Thank you so very much! - svieta <svietakovach@gmail.com> wrote... > Guys, I have a quick question. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > - svieta It depends on how the contracts are written. Who is responsible for what? I'd call the window manufacturer and the architect and clear it up. I'd also get the owner in on it as well. You might mention additional expenses and delays. That usually gets their attention. ><svietakovach@gmail.com> wrote... >> Guys, I have a quick question. >> >> Lets say you are GC. Windows manufacturer prepares windows schedule >> submittal for you, but windows shown on submittal are smaller than >> those on drawings. So you refuse to accept the incorrect windows, right? Unless you made the mistake and specified them wrong... >>You send this submittal to the architect. 4 weeks >> later - still no response. When you called the architect, what did he/she say? >>You tell the architect that you'll start >> framing in 4 weeks (smaller rough openings) if he doesn't tell you to >> not to do so. And the owner of the home rejects your work because the windows don't match the specifications? You do have insurance right? (You'll need it!) >> Does that make sense? None what so ever. First, don't accept materials that are not acceptable, such as windows that don't match your specifications. Second, don't make changes to the plans without *all* parties signing off on the changes. >> Shouldn't you wait for this submittal to be >> approved before you proceed with framing? Especially that you know >> that it's not the same thing as on drawings? Absolutely wait. But take the lead, and call the architect, the owner, and the window company. Find out who made the error and get *them* to fix it. If you made the mistake, worse case: eBay the wrong windows, and order new ones. >> Thank you so very much! >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >also get the owner in on it as well. You might mention additional expenses >and delays. That usually gets their attention. Agreed 100%. And if by chance you (the GC) made the mistake, be prepared to eat the cost of the mistake. Thank you guys, I knew I can count on you! I didn't expect such a quick response though, I am really impressed. What I was looking for, was confirmation that GC shouldn't proceed without approved submittal, and if he does - it's his responsibility if something goes wrong. What does one do in the situation when architect is not responding in timely manner to either RFIs or submittals, even if the owner is informed and involved? Let's say that this lack of response is a reason for project delay - are we gonna put whole responsibility on architect? I assume that maximum response time suppose to be somewhere in General Conditions - is that correct? Thank you! - svieta On Aug 22, 12:55 pm, svietakov...@gmail.com wrote: > Thank you guys, I knew I can count on you! I didn't expect such a > quick response though, I am really impressed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > timely manner to either RFIs or submittals, even if the owner is > informed and involved? Rattle some cages by sending a registered letter or telegram to the Owner and architect informing them that the lengthy delay will be raising the GC's costs and that a change order will be sent to the Owner requesting additional monies to cover the delay. > Let's say that this lack of response is a reason for project delay - > are we gonna put whole responsibility on architect? I assume that > maximum response time suppose to be somewhere in General Conditions - > is that correct? The contract language should cover delays due to non-performance. If the architect used the standard AIA documents you can guess which way the bias goes. Read the contract, send the letters. R >On Aug 22, 12:55 pm, svietakov...@gmail.com wrote: >> Thank you guys, I knew I can count on you! I didn't expect such a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >raising the GC's costs and that a change order will be sent to the >Owner requesting additional monies to cover the delay. Why, it's not the owner or the architect's fault that the windows are the wrong size. It is either the window company, or the GC. Whoever made the error should pay, not the architect or owner. >> Let's say that this lack of response is a reason for project delay - >> are we gonna put whole responsibility on architect? I assume that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Read the contract, send the letters. And tell us *why* the windows ended up the wrong size, who's fault that was. No advice is worth a hill of beans (or even a small pile of 'em) without that information. >R > And tell us *why* the windows ended up the wrong size, who's fault > that was. No advice is worth a hill of beans (or even a small pile of > 'em) without that information. > > >R Here's info I have: CONTRACT: Windows were dimensioned at 120" wide and 93" tall, factory-assembled, one-piece units. Windows manufacturer says that they quoted standard, off-the-shelf unit to their Lumber Yard dealer who quoted the bidding generals. That unit was SINGLE-PIECE. They do not make 120" wide and 93" tall windows under their standard product line. Not only was it to be a custom- fabrication, it had to come in three pieces. I guess they figured that size is not critical... (?!!!) - svieta > And tell us *why* the windows ended up the wrong size, who's fault > that was. No advice is worth a hill of beans (or even a small pile of > 'em) without that information. CONTRACT: Windows were dimensioned at 120" wide and 93" tall, factory-assembled, one-piece units. Windows manufacturer says that they quoted standard, off-the-shelf unit (100" wide and 84" tall) to their Lumber Yard dealer who quoted the bidding generals. That unit was SINGLE-PIECE. They do not make 120" wide and 93" tall windows under their standard product line. Not only was it to be a custom-fabrication, it had to come in three pieces. I guess they figured that size is not critical... (?!!!) - svieta >> And tell us *why* the windows ended up the wrong size, who's fault >> that was. No advice is worth a hill of beans (or even a small pile of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > pieces. > I guess they figured that size is not critical... (?!!!) What does the window schedule or drawings have listed for the windows? Is there a specification for the job? Does it spell out the window specifics? If any of those specifically call for a single piece 120x93 window made by that manufacturer then it sounds like the architect didn't do his/her homework if the window doesn't exist or can't be made. Nonetheless, I stand by my earlier statement. Get the owner, architect and manufacturer to settle on what is to be installed. If communication between these people is that hard now, you have a bumpy road ahead. > On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the wrong size. It is either the window company, or the GC. Whoever > made the error should pay, not the architect or owner. I agree with you that the GC has the primary duty to do a cursory review of the shop drawings, but it is the architect's job to review submittals and render verdicts. It is more troubling to me that there is such a delay in what should be a slam-dunk "Revise & Resubmit" rejection from the architect. There's also the fact that the usual supporting reason for substituting or changing items is due to unavailability/delays or cost savings. The Owner has a big say in those decisions. > >> Let's say that this lack of response is a reason for project delay - > >> are we gonna put whole responsibility on architect? I assume that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that was. No advice is worth a hill of beans (or even a small pile of > 'em) without that information. I don't understand the OP's coyness in where they fit into the picture. They don't seem to realize that different parties have different objectives. R > > On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > R OK, let's put it all together. It seems like all the parties involved screw up, more or less. Windows manufacturer - bidding windows different than those shown in contract documents. Architect - not replying for submittal for way too long. GC - proceeding with work without approved submittal. What happens next? Framing is there (rough openings for smaller windows). Architect says that it's unacceptable, it has to be redone, new windows ordered. Who is gonna swallow the extra cost? Is it fully GC responsibility? I know that one may need to know more details, but that's all I know about the situation. On Aug 23, 12:28 pm, svietakov...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > GC responsibility? I know that one may need to know more details, but > that's all I know about the situation. There are so many variable that it's a pointless question to ask unless someone feels like hypothesizing possible scenarios. I'd rather answer specific questions about construction. R (As I have all gmail.com posters blocked, I'm replying using RicordJour's message. Comments are directed to the OP however...) >On Aug 23, 12:28 pm, svietakov...@gmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >> Windows manufacturer - bidding windows different than those shown in >> contract documents. So you, the GC didn't review the window maker's bid? >> Architect - not replying for submittal for way too long. The windows were wrong, the architect is not a major player in that problem >> GC - proceeding with work without approved submittal. You said in your opening post, you were the GC. Are you not? Then who are you, the owner? What's your stake in this? >> What happens next? Framing is there (rough openings for smaller >> windows). Why, oh why, did you frame to the wrong specifications? You have the plans from the architect, that is what you build, you don't have the ability or authority to change the plans as you did, especially for such a silly reason. What you should have done, was built to the specifications and gotten the 'right' windows. There are so many things wrong with that move it isn't even funny. Sad, really. You should not hide the problem, but fix it. >>Architect says that it's unacceptable, it has to be redone, That makes 100% sense. >> new windows ordered. Who is gonna swallow the extra cost? Who authorized framing to the wrong specifications? He will pay. Who continued without properly reviewing the window maker's bid to ensure it met the specifications? He will pay. Wait, they are both the GC's responsibility, and you said you were the GC. Right? >> Is it fully >> GC responsibility? Yes, from everything you have posted, it is your fault. >> I know that one may need to know more details, but >> that's all I know about the situation. You wouldn't be the owner, trying to be his own GC would you? Figuring you could save a buck or two? Luckily it's only homework for school. But then - if I were the owner trying to be his own GC - we wouldn't have a problem here. If owner/GC accepts smaller windows (assuming that modified framing is not gonna affect the rest of design) there is no need to rebuild the rough openings. Anyway - thank you guys for all your help - enjoy the rest of your Sunday! - svieta On Aug 24, 8:26 pm, svietakov...@gmail.com wrote: > Luckily it's only homework for school. But then - if I were the owner > trying to be his own GC - we wouldn't have a problem here. If owner/GC [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - svieta Just penalizing the one who deviated.. anyhow applies.But one may like to ask, after all in an inter-dependant building business, are not the rights responsibilities and privileges between GC, architect and owner/client not clearly defined in _any_ contract? On Aug 24, 8:26 pm, svietakov...@gmail.com wrote: > Luckily it's only homework for school. You have got to be joking... 1. If you must post your homework, at least say so. 2. I hope you fail in school, you deserve it. > But then - if I were the owner > trying to be his own GC - we wouldn't have a problem here. If owner/GC [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - svieta "PeterD" <peter2@hipson.net> wrote.. > On Aug 24, 8:26 pm, svietakov...@gmail.com wrote: >> Luckily it's only homework for school. > > You have got to be joking... > > 1. If you must post your homework, at least say so. Which is why I'm always leery about replying to someone with a g-mail account. It's usually some looser or coward that doesn't have the balls to use a real e-mail account. > 2. I hope you fail in school, you deserve it. Well if he's stupid enough to trust a bunch of strangers on the internet for his homework, then he should. >"PeterD" <peter2@hipson.net> wrote.. >> On Aug 24, 8:26 pm, svietakov...@gmail.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Well if he's stupid enough to trust a bunch of strangers on the internet for >his homework, then he should. <GGG> Worse, since I'm (now retired) also a college professor! And yes, we do check the Internet for just this type of thing... Unless he is going to a school with an idiot for a professor, he's been caught. I have a filter on gmail.com so I don't see any original posts. I did see follow-ups and that is how I ended up in the thread. |
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