Insulation Manufacturers - Which to choose?
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Engnrguy - 26 Jun 2006 21:35 GMT Hello all.
I am trying to choose between Insulation quotes but each company is using different insulation manufacturers. I checked on the specs of each manufacturer and they all seem relatively the same.
I have read that some copanies are pure fiberglass while others are a wool fiberglass mixture. This is for my new home in Swansea, MA.
My questions are: What do you use when your building a home? Is there a particular brand or company you stay away from?
Dick Russell - 27 Jun 2006 13:26 GMT > Hello all. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > What do you use when your building a home? > Is there a particular brand or company you stay away from? Since you are building a new structure and have expressed an interest in getting it right, you perhaps ought to go beyond the immediate question of type of insulation. I assume you are interested in more than getting a low bid. Choice of insulation should be a part of complete wall design, and that includes location and post-construction integrity of the vapor barrier; proper installation and flashing of windows; integration of siding, housewrap, and any rainscreen provisions. It all works together, so all of the wall components should be designed together. Spend a lot of time researching the subject on sites like this and others.
One problem with some types of insulation, such as fiberglass, is that they collapse and become far less effective if they get wet, and that is where proper installation of housewrap, windows (with respect to flashing - web sites claim 90% of windows in the country are not installed and flashed correctly), and vapor barrier come into play. If your vapor barrier is installed diligently, then punctured all over the place during wiring, plumbing, and sheetrock installation, then in winter you have moisture moving through the wall assembly, across a temperature gradient until it hits the dew point and you have condensation.
As you search further, you'll see comments about the effectiveness of insulation being diminished by as much as 50% by air infiltration on cold and windy days in winter. In the case of fiberglass insulation, even with no air infiltration high temperature gradients in the dead of winter can result in small circulation currents within the batt, due to differences in air density on the warm and cold sides of the batt, and any movement of what should be dead air within the insulation cuts into its effective R value. Blown cellulose is tighter and far less prone to this, and foams are even better in this respect.
A case can be made for foam insulation, but it costs more. You'll see discussions of both open-cell foams, such as Icynene (R about 3.6/inch, but less costly) and closed cell polyurethane (R 6.5 to 7 per inch, but more money). Both are vapor retarders, both will block infiltration of air in bulk, and both will give more total R value in the wall than will fiberglass.
Finally, if you wind up with a well-designed wall that is energy-efficient and protects the insulation from moisture from both inside and outside, you'll have a tight house, and that in turn means you'll need fresh air for the occupants. That calls for a heat recovery ventilator and appropriate ducting to serve the whole house. Don't let the builder tell you that the house "needs to breathe a little." That's an ill-informed way of saying the house may have to be deliberately leaky and energy-inefficient to compensate for moisture getting into the wall cavity from improper design and construction of the wall. The problem with making the house "tight, but not too tight" is that on cold windy winter days the house will leak far more, on mild windless days it will leak very little, and in any case you'll never know whether the leakage (expressed as air changes per hour, or ACH; 0.3 to 0.4 is a good working number) is too much or too little, and whatever it is you'll have absolutely no control over it. Put in the ventilator, and you can dial up whatever air change rate you need for comfort, health, and humidity control.
Do your homework. Don't rely on the builder to get it right, because far too many of them just do things the way they've always done things. There are plenty of sites providing good advice on building science these days, and a number of forums that regularly toss around ideas on wall design. You'll also see discussions of the horror stories that result when the wall wasn't done right for the environment around the house.
Enough soapboxing. I'll let others comment on what I've said. I'm sure there will be plenty.
Engnrguy - 27 Jun 2006 14:45 GMT Thanks Dick, I have taken into account all of these issues.
I choose better built Pella windows and doors as well as purchasing the flashing type tape to seal around the windows before they side the house. I have thought alot about sealing gaps and voids in the framing as well as around the windows, on the inside, with the expading foam for a better seal. (I actually purchased almost a dozen cans to be sure I have enough. Also I am asking the builder to fix or cover and holes or tears in the Tyvek as he goes. (I am thinking about also adding the foam under the vinyl siding so as to have two layer of material between the siding and the wall.
I priced the Icynene and it is well beyond what I can aceive with my budget. I tried to cut things out of my budget, like cear impressions siding, the really BIG fireplace, and nice counter tops inorder to upgrade the things that matter over time BUT I still can't fit the icynene stuff in. That is why I was asking about the insulation manufacturer. I would like to know if one company has a better product with regards to longevity of the product and its ability to insulate.
Dick Russell - 27 Jun 2006 15:27 GMT > Thanks Dick, > I have taken into account all of these issues. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > manufacturer. I would like to know if one company has a better product > with regards to longevity of the product and its ability to insulate. Sounds like you are doing some of the smaller building tasks yourself. Nice that the builder is cooperating with that. My thought on the use of a foam board between the siding and sheathing is that it would be a second vapor retarder, but on the cold side of the wall. That would tend to keep water vapor trapped within the wall cavity. I have been following a thread on another forum recently on the issue of Tyvek and its effectiveness as a water resistive barrier (WRB). It is known that unprimed cedar up against polyolefin vapor barriers can release natural solvents out onto the WRB surface and degrade it. There is much back and forth on use of #15 felt in addition to the Tyvek as a means of protecting the Tyvek, so that it becomes just an air barrier to keep infiltration out of the insulation. On another thread, which began last fall and wound up this past spring, a lady near Philadelphia described an extensive residing to a fairly recently constructed house, due to water leakage around improperly flashed windows, and the resulting mold problem. She had done extensive investigation of installation and materials issues, probably far more than the builders that had been involved. She wound up stripping all the siding off, reinstalling all the windows (properly flashed this time), and using HomeSlicker (www.benjaminobdyke.com) between the housewrap and new siding. HomeSlicker is a mesh product either 7 or 10 mm thick (1/4 or 3/8 inch) that provides a rainscreen design; the air gap between siding and housewrap allows any water that does get behind the siding to run down freely and, perhaps more importantly, allows the space behind the siding to dry after the rain ends. The 10 mm version meets the Canadian requirements for rainscreens in the Pacific Northwest area, where they get a lot of wind-driven rain in the course of a year. I've been considering that product for my own project, a couple of years off.
As to type of insulation to use, if I don't go with something like Icynene then I probably will use blown dry cellulose, because it has slightly better R value and when blown to the recommended density (3 lb/cu.ft.) it doesn't allow thermal currents to develop when the temperature gradient is high, as on very cold days. With either cellulose or the pink stuff, keeping water out of the wall cavity is a must, unless the wall itself is left very leaky so as to promote drying. But leaky walls and energy efficiency are mutually exclusive; that's why I said earlier that the whole wall needs to be designed as a system, and a tight house needs a heat recovery ventilator. Good luck with your project. Let us know what you decide.
marson - 28 Jun 2006 01:45 GMT seems like what the OP is asking is what are the differences betweens brands of insulation i.e. owens corning vs john mansville. i assume he is speaking of fiberglass. i've never heard that it makes a difference. i have noticed that some brands are dustier than others (john mansville especially). that would affect the installer more than the homeowner.
regarding the foam on the outside, while theoretically it is a vapor barrier on the cold side, in actual practice it has proven to be a good way to go. what happens is that the sheathing is warmer and thus can keep the stud cavity above the dew point, which is a good thing. many people have done it...the proof is in the pudding. if i was going that route, i would take extra care with my vapor barrier as an added precaution.
yeah, icynene and blown in blanket are great ways to go, for them that can afford it. the rest of us have to settle for fiberglass.
Engnrguy - 28 Jun 2006 16:38 GMT > seems like what the OP is asking is what are the differences betweens > brands of insulation i.e. owens corning vs john mansville. i assume he > is speaking of fiberglass. i've never heard that it makes a > difference. i have noticed that some brands are dustier than others > (john mansville especially). that would affect the installer more than > the homeowner. This is exactly my question. I can't fit the Icynene in the budget. It is determined that Fiberglass insulation is my only affordable option.
> regarding the foam on the outside, while theoretically it is a vapor > barrier on the cold side, in actual practice it has proven to be a good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > route, i would take extra care with my vapor barrier as an added > precaution. This seems to be an oft debated question. I think I may have to just be sure my contractor recovers any gaps or cuts in the tyvek and is sure the wrap in homogenous, or as much as possible. I will seal gaps and things from the iside with foam and what not, at least as much as possible.
> yeah, icynene and blown in blanket are great ways to go, for them that > can afford it. the rest of us have to settle for fiberglass. That is me, unfortunately.
So the question remains...Are there any brands or manufacturers that you prefer or stay away from? I have heard Knaupf is a mich of wool and Fibeglass. JM is 100% formaldahyde free. The other are just Fiberglass.
Any other thoughts? I can't seem to find ANY information online about differences between brands.
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