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Homeowner Forum / Construction / March 2006



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HELP - Siding - Removing Cedar - Replacing with Hardiplank

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construction insurance guy - 28 Mar 2006 01:39 GMT
My house is in Roswell, GA - about 15 miles straight north from
Atlanta. I think the latititude is almost dead-on 34 degrees north.

Built 1979. Cedar Lap Siding all around.

A good bit of the siding is in fine and dandy shape.

There are three areas, though, that get an absolute beating from the
sun.

The siding on those areas / surfaces has had it. It has been painted
and boards replaced here and there and popped knot holes filled, etc.
It's a losing battle.

So, after a lot of poking around and discussion with some of my
customers, I conclude that Hardiplank is the way to go (or at least one
of the better options).

Here's the hook: Under the siding there is felt....and that's it. No
sheathing. If you find an open knot hole, the felt is visible. Poke
through it, and the odds are 90% (give or take) that you will hit
insulation. (You might hit a stud, in which case you could hang a
picture on the side of my house).

When I discovered that, it ended the question about why my kitchen is
so out-of-whack cold in the winter.

I tried to wade through the code on this and, as you are probably
aware, it is about the only thing more vague than an insurance policy.

I suppose it does not matter whether the original builder played by the
rules or not. The water is way past the bridge and to the ocean by now.

My thinking is that if I have Hardiplank (or some James Hardie product)
put on, I should have sheathing put on also (and house wrap / Tyvek).
That idea was supported by a builder who told me that without the
sheathing the Hardiplank would like go wavy on me.

Is it surprising to you that there is no sheathing under there ?

What are your thoughts on my plan to add sheathing ?

Anything else to add ?
marson - 28 Mar 2006 03:27 GMT
i have heard of building without sheathing--in fact in my young and
poor days i built an outdoor sauna without sheathing.  the most
important function of sheathing is structural...it provides resistance
to racking.  diagonal braces (either let-in 1x or steel) can also serve
this function.  not that i'd recommend building without sheathing.  it
also provides a layer of protection against air infiltration for one
thing.

I think adding sheathing is a good idea.  you might want to walk around
the house and make sure there aren't issues that adding a half inch of
thickness would cause...like how are the windows and doors installed?
if you sheath around them, will water still be kept from penetrating
the structure. another question to ask is what kind of sheathing.
presumably, if your house has stood for almost 30 years without
collapsing like a house of cards, it must be adequetely braced.  so you
could consider foam sheathing (like R-board or the like) or perhaps a
product like Bilt-Rite.  Good luck.
Grumman-581 - 28 Mar 2006 03:36 GMT
> Is it surprising to you that there is no sheathing under there ?

Nawh, some builders do the minimum necessary to get by with...

Assuming that the HardiPlank is nailed to every stud and the studs are on
16" centers, I don't think that you will get waves in it... Personally, I
would try to make sure that the butt joints line up on studs...

> What are your thoughts on my plan to add sheathing ?

My philosophy is that is it's better to start with an airtight house and
worry about adding ventilation than a drafty house and trying to stop all
the leaks...

Depending upon the style of the house, stucco might also be an option for
you... Putting sheathing in addition to stucco is probably a bit of
overkill... You still have to put some sort of vapor barrier between the
stucco and the wall studs -- tar paper, Tyvek, etc...
MaxChunk@ergebnis.de - 28 Mar 2006 04:02 GMT
> So, after a lot of poking around and discussion with some of my
> customers, I conclude that Hardiplank is the way to go (or at least one
> of the better options).

Good idea.  Mine looks great after 2 seasons.  Like it was painted
yesterday.

> My thinking is that if I have Hardiplank (or some James Hardie product)
> put on, I should have sheathing put on also (and house wrap / Tyvek).
> That idea was supported by a builder who told me that without the
> sheathing the Hardiplank would like go wavy on me.

Sheathing will make it easier to put the Tyvek and siding on straight.
Your marking and nailing surfaces will be more uniform.  The drawbacks
are the cost. I think it is now $12 around here for 7/16 OSB 4x8. (I
only paid $5... before the Iraq war and Katrina.)  Another drawback is
the sheathing will hide the studs, so you'll have to make sure you mark
their locations since the Hardiplank is supposed to be nailed to the
studs, not the sheathing.

> Is it surprising to you that there is no sheathing under there ?

No.  Probably the strategy used in your house was to let it breath to
prevent mold... smart in a hot humid climate.  And cheap.  Plus as
someone else said, as long as you have bracing you don't need the OSB
for bracing... but the OSB sure will make the house seem sturdier in winds.

I would avoid stucco in GA... seems like that would cause problems with
wood rot, especially the fake Dryvit "stucco" that is causing lawsuits
in NC.
Grumman-581 - 28 Mar 2006 06:58 GMT
> No.  Probably the strategy used in your house was to let it breath to
> prevent mold... smart in a hot humid climate.  And cheap.

I suspect that "cheap" was probably the reason...

> I would avoid stucco in GA... seems like that would cause problems with
> wood rot, especially the fake Dryvit "stucco" that is causing lawsuits
> in NC.

Yeah, the synthetic stuccos are definitely to be avoided, but I don't think
he would have a problem with *real* stucco... I'm in Houston and I suspect
that we get more rain than GA and you see stucco quite a bit around here,
but don't hear of any wood rot problems caused by it...  The problem with
stucco is that it costs more than siding... Not probably so much from a
material standpoint, but from a labor standpoint... It takes some skill to
put stucco on whereas just about any day laborer that the contractor hires
will be able to put siding on...

HardiPlank is good though... I've taken an acetylene cutting torch to it and
couldn't get it to burn... Too bad the same can't be said for what most
houses are built from these days... If I want to build a wall that will
last, I'll build it out of CMUs filled with concrete and rebar... If I'm
going to have to carry the building materials myself, stick frame
construction starts looking a bit more enticing... <grin>

Nothing quite like the fun of going to Home Depot, picking up around 1000
lbs of bagged concrete mix, putting it in the bed of your pickup, unloading
it at the house for a project, and realizing that this was just for a
*small* part of the entire project...
Jonny - 28 Mar 2006 14:58 GMT
> My house is in Roswell, GA - about 15 miles straight north from
> Atlanta. I think the latititude is almost dead-on 34 degrees north.
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Anything else to add ?

If you're replacing with Hardie horizontal lap siding, you have to double up
the studs.  You can't nail (or screw) as close to the end of the siding as
you would in wood siding.

If the house has integral bracing in the walls, for instance a 1X4
diagonally cut into the studs at the corners, you don't really need OSB for
this purpose.

Many builders also use OSB on the walls prior to Hardie lap siding as its
much easier to nail the product to the studs.  Also, the siding won't mirror
a wavy stud wall as much.

IF, IF, IF you have doubled up studs, a straight non-wavy stud wall, and
integral wind bracing, you don't need OSB.  You can use 1/2" fiberglas
insulation bonded both sides by aluminum foil for slight insulation
increase.  I did my standalone garage in that fashion.  The wall length is
only 20', so it was easier to maintain straightness and nonwavy appearance.
Paying attention to nailing (or screwing), not to compress the insulation
during the application phase of the siding.

If you have studs with excessive bow outward or inward, consider replacing
these.  The Hardie siding will mirror all imperfections.  A bowed inward or
outward wall at the sole or top plate line can be hid to some degree.  Some
use taut nylon stringline at each corner offset with a 1 by lumber from the
wall to get absolute straight reference for this.  I can't overemphasize
straight framing that supports the siding enough.

When the crew is finished, check the laps.  These may show lack of flush to
wall by virtue of gaps at the lap joints.  Be sure they're tight at the lap
joints.  Little caulking should be needed here.  Corner, butt, and inside
joints may be another matter.  These should have some minor flex.  This
allows growth and shrinkage due to moisture and heat.  Proper caulking will
absorb the flex.
Signature

Jonny

MaxChunk@ergebnis.de - 30 Mar 2006 04:57 GMT
> If you're replacing with Hardie horizontal lap siding, you have to double up
> the studs.  You can't nail (or screw) as close to the end of the siding as
> you would in wood siding.

What we did was center the end of the lap siding on the stud.  You get
.75" each way, and if you drill at a 45 degree angle you can get a bit
further from the siding edge.  That worked well for us, and we didn't
break any of the ends out on this 2-story house.

> integral wind bracing, you don't need OSB.  You can use 1/2" fiberglas
> insulation bonded both sides by aluminum foil for slight insulation
> increase.  I did my standalone garage in that fashion.  The wall length is
> only 20', so it was easier to maintain straightness and nonwavy appearance.
> Paying attention to nailing (or screwing), not to compress the insulation
> during the application phase of the siding.

I agree about the compression.  Definitely hardiplank will
mirror-through any imperfections in the wall.  I don't like the aluminum
faced stuff because it will trap moisture... no way it will "breath".
Not a big thing for your garage, though.

Max
 
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