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Homeowner Forum / Construction / March 2006Moving a whirlpool pump?
Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. The Aqua Flo pump was installed on the subfloor and at the foot of the tub within the wall enclosure. When we are using the feature the roar of the pump is almost deafening. Even though there is access to the pump via a small wall hatch in the wall, tearing down the walls to gain good access for sound deadening insulation is not worth the bigger hassle to us. Instead, I am thinking of moving the pump down to the crawl space directly below the tub structure, about 4 feet vertical. I figure this should solve a good part of the noise problem and thus make the tub more usable. My preliminary plan was to mount the pump on a concrete block (in the dry warm cement crawl space) and run 1-1/2" reinforced braided vinyl hoses back up to the copper plumbing at the tub (inlet and jets) using sch80 pvc insert fittings there. Because of the pump's low pressure/ high volume and relatively low temps generated for the bath, I figured the braided vinyl stuff would be acceptable. The hoses should also keep sound transfer to a minimum. However, I need to know if there are any other special considerations (check valves (priming), hose collapsing, water lift problems, potential motor damage, etc) in mounting this pump below the tub and/or whether this process would work properly at all. Thanks for your suggestions. Jack > Instead, I am thinking of moving the pump down to the crawl space directly > below the tub structure, about 4 feet vertical. I figure this should solve > a good part of the noise problem and thus make the tub more usable. As long as you're thinking about moving it, you might as well think about adding a heater to it... One of the things that irritates me on the various houses which I've owned with whirlpool type tubs is that as you're soaking in them, the water gets cooler faster with the whirlpool on as compared to when the water just sits in the tub... Basically, the tubing of the tub is acting as a heat exchanger and allowing the water to cool quicker... You don't necessarily need a heater than can warm up a tub of cold water to 104F -- one that can just offset losses and maintain the starting temperature would even be nice... Also, if your whirlpool has an air blower, that cools off the water quicker... In addition, the air bubbles might be a portion of your noise problem... Simplest solution? Get a pair of ear plugs... Earplugs. Hah. Actually, if it wasn't for the fact that the tub came with the house when we bought it some years ago, I think we would never have put one in ..or stuck in a air bubbler type instead - - less noise at least. And you are probably right on about the loss of heat from the exchange of both water during circulation and air induction. But we really don't want the added expense of buying and installing a heater (I understand they are expensive) as well as freeing up another couple breakers for the power. For the few times we actually use the thing, my idea of moving the pump is only an acceptable idea if it can be done simply. So, my question stands: is my plan doable? Jack >> Instead, I am thinking of moving the pump down to the crawl space >> directly [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Simplest solution? Get a pair of ear plugs... In alt.building.construction, "Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message news:I_mUf.586$Ph4.321@edtnps90... > Earplugs. Hah. Yeah, laugh all you want, but it's the cheapest solution that you're likely to get... Less than a buck and you can get 29-31 dB reduction in sound level... Let's see how much that much reduction costs you with other methods... <grin> > Actually, if it wasn't for the fact that the tub came with the house when we > bought it some years ago, I think we would never have put one in ..or stuck > in a air bubbler type instead - - less noise at least. Same here... Frankly, in the last 3 houses that I've owned, each of the whirlpool tubs got used only a couple of times each year -- at most... If the water stayed warm, they would have been used a bit more... For the most part, we tend to be a shower family... I tend to only use the whirlpool when I've done something that resulted in rather sore muscles (e.g. returning from a week of skiing, etc)... Without a heater, the water cools down enough within 5 minutes that you need to drain some water and add more hot water... This is a waste of the heat that is already in the water that you are draining... Now, if you have someone who can boil some water on the stove and swap it out with your bathwater periodically while you're in the tub, great... If not, either get used to having a whirlpool of cooler water or buy a heater for your whirlpool... When I finally get around to designing and building my ultimate house, I want a shower *room*, not a shower *stall*... Something big enough for 4 or more people... Something that you walk inside instead of stepping into... Any whirlpool tub would be constructed of concrete, inground, with stone facing on it and heated... Basically, it would be an indoor hot tub, I guess... > But we really don't want the added expense of buying and installing > a heater (I understand they are expensive) as well as freeing up > another couple breakers for the power. I checked on the prices of them recently and they were slightly less than $200... They are 1500W units... http://www.bathtubparts.com/heaters.html There are also some units that scavenge the heat from your pump and use that to maintain the heat of the water... I don't think that they can necessarily raise the water temperature, but they claim to at least be able to maintain it... They were around $210, IIRC... Of course, they require no new electrical supply... > For the few times we actually use the thing, my idea of moving the pump is > only an acceptable idea if it can be done simply. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > > Simplest solution? Get a pair of ear plugs... Thanks for the thoughts there. I'll have another look at the heater addon. But I still have to get my head around the idea of spending much more moolah ..and time.. on this thing. Like you, showers are our mainstay and only really use the tub to sooth aching parts. We just wanted to get a modicum of use out of what we already have is all. Earplugs are an idea and that may happen if I can't satisfy the technical aspects of moving the pump down below the tub. Jack > In alt.building.construction, "Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in > message news:I_mUf.586$Ph4.321@edtnps90... [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] >> > >> > Simplest solution? Get a pair of ear plugs... > Thanks for the thoughts there. I'll have another look at the heater addon. Just trying to point out some things that you might not have considered... If you're going to the trouble of opening up everything and moving the pump, plumbing in a heater is probably not that big of a deal... Just remember that a lot of the noise of the pump is going to be carried by the physical connection between it and the tub... Moving it a few feet away is not going to necessarily reduce that sort of transmitted noise... Of course, the futher you move it away, the more pipe which will act as a larger heat exchanger, thus reducing your water temperature even quicker... To maximize the noise reduction, you would need to enclose the pump in some sort of enclosure, possibly even adding a noise deadening foam to the enclosure... Depending upon how irritated you are about the sound level, an acceptable reduction in the sound level might not be easy... > But I still have to get my head around the idea of spending much more moolah > ..and time.. on this thing. Like you, showers are our mainstay and only > really use the tub to sooth aching parts. We just wanted to get a modicum > of use out of what we already have is all. Earplugs are an idea and that > may happen if I can't satisfy the technical aspects of moving the pump down > below the tub. When the muscles are sore, they sure are nice, but all in all, they are one of the least used items in the various houses that I've owned... The fact that you pretty much empty a hot water heater trying to fill one up and it doesn't stay hot long enough for the hot water heater to make up the lost hot water doesn't really help much either... Try a set of the memory foam type ear plugs the next time you're using the whirlpool... They're cheap and comfortable... Then think seriously about what is going to be necessary for you to achieve 29-31 dB in noise reduction through other means... You might also want to ensure that the noise that you're hearing is actually the pump itself and not just the movement of the water... The addition of air bubbles to the water seems to make a noticeable increase in the noise level of the whirlpool tubs that I've owned... > Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. The Aqua Flo pump > was installed on the subfloor and at the foot of the tub within the wall > enclosure. When we are using the feature the roar of the pump is almost > deafening. Snip Are you sure the pump isn't just old and noisy? I did pool and spa repairs for a number of years, and as the motors, bearings and seals wear, they vibrate more. Hence, more noise. It sounds to me that your easiest fix is to replace the pump. I believe in your post you mentioned copper water supply lines, so that thing is _old_school_. Hope it helps, -Phil Crow Yeah, I know. But in order to replace all the copper surrounding the tub, we would have to literally wreck the walls around it and then replumb. It is an old system with 6 fixed jets and an air intake on the rear deck. The pump is an older model but it hasn't seen much use over the years ..probably due to its overall noise. So.. can this pump be moved to the crawl space? It seems such a simple operation but I'm not sure if it will technically work. Jack >> Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. The Aqua Flo >> pump [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -Phil Crow > Yeah, I know. But in order to replace all the copper surrounding the tub, > we would have to literally wreck the walls around it and then replumb. It [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So.. can this pump be moved to the crawl space? It seems such a simple > operation but I'm not sure if it will technically work. Jack I would think so. Adding in a few feet of pipe shouldn't pose too much of a problem, but adding 4 feet of head to the system may slow down the flow of water through the jets. The determining factor there would seem to be the HP of the pump. My preference would be to use PVC rather than braided flex hose, but that's just because I don't have any experience with it. Just remember to tape and dope all your screw joints. Let me say here and now that I'm not an engineer, nor do I have any laboratory experience with fluid dynamics or anything like that. I base my conclusions solely on the experience that I have gained in my lifetime. The pump *suction should be in rigid PVC or copper, not hose because the pump suction will tend to flatten it. otherwise I dont see a problem... you will not loose pressure because of the lift because of the added suction pressure with the pump located low in the basement... it balances with the head loss Phil Scott mech engr.  SignaturePhil Scott Ideas are bullet proof. > Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. > The Aqua Flo pump was installed on the subfloor and at the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Jack > The pump *suction should be in rigid PVC or copper, not hose > because the pump suction will tend to flatten it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Phil Scott > mech engr. One problem though, if the pump is lower than the tub, then you may have quite a bit of water standing in the pump and lines, which will be a great place for bacteria to grow. -Hershel Thanks for the thoughts and tips, guys. After thinking about the move, I too got concerned about the column of standing water in the hoses. As it is we have to purge the system (crap in the little bit of standing water) before refilling the tub with hot water ..what a wa$te. Also, there may be the little problem of yet more heat exchanging going on due to the added length of the circuit. So... methinks I may just leave the pump where it is and try to insulate the pump's noise better, perhaps even raising it even more to make sure it drains back into the tub via the tub's intake port. It currently sits on a piece of carpet where it is lag screwed to the subfloor. I was also contemplating installing an inline heater but gathering the space for that feature may prove difficult as I am restricted as to access, and I really don't want to reno any walls. The wall hatch is only about 14" square - - just enough for pump service. My wife and I have hardly ever used the tub anyway (showers mostly) and not sure we would use it more if a heater was installed. Jack >> The pump *suction should be in rigid PVC or copper, not hose >> because the pump suction will tend to flatten it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -Hershel > Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. The Aqua Flo > pump was installed on the subfloor and at the foot of the tub within the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Jack There are two ways a pump makes noise. mechanical---doing what it does,noise from bearings,electric motor etc --damp this by putting it on an anti vibration mat,something like 25mm (1 inch) neoprene mat or similar will do the job --the pumps we mount are considerably larger than a whirlpool supply (well unless you have a feed in excess of 12 inch) ---our method is to form a sandwich mounting block --concrete a layer of neoprene,layer of concrete,layer of neoprene ,layer of concrete ,fix the pump to this also on rubber mounts. The next place you will get sound is from the vibration transfered to the pipework---put flexible conectors on feed and supply side,rubber type pipe. Ensure feed and supply pipes to and from the pool are securely mounted with rubber type gaskets between the pipe and the clamp at each location. You will get noise transfered by the water--an option is to add a sealed tank on the outlet side about a third of the way from the pump to the outlet,it will act as a muffler,but not reduce flow. All great ideas. I will check them out. Thanks for the tips, Bud. ..thanks everyone for your time and input! Jack >> Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. The Aqua Flo >> pump was installed on the subfloor and at the foot of the tub within the [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > tank on the outlet side about a third of the way from the pump to the > outlet,it will act as a muffler,but not reduce flow. |
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