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Homeowner Forum / Construction / January 2006IKO shingle problem
Last August I had a complete new roof installed on my house in Western NY. The pitch is 12/12 with 2x12 rafters on 16" centers and 1/2" plywood. Grace TRI-FLEX underlayment was used under the shingles. The shingles were installed using a power nailer. The shingles were IKO Cambridge Driftwood DIM30(3) . My concern is that scattered around the roof are shingles that have sections that have not laid down and are raised up about an inch or more. These areas kind of look like eye brows. The rest of the parts of the shingles appear to be stuck down and flat. I feel that these are a problem and I either have a product problem or a installation problem. Can anyone tell me if this is caused by bad shingles or if the installer did something wrong. Oh, another fact is that I had roof top delivery and they were all installed within 3 days. I called IKO customer noservice and they said that they would send me out a questioneer and a packet. They also said I had to rip off two shingles to send to them for evaluation. All I wanted was maybe a company rep to look at the roof and venture an opinion without ripping stuff off the roof. Right now I am real sorry to have bought their shingles. <snip> > My concern is that scattered around the roof are shingles that have > sections that have not laid down and are raised up about an inch or more. > These areas kind of look like eye brows. The rest of the parts of the > shingles appear to be stuck down and flat. I feel that these are a > problem and I either have a product problem or a installation problem. I know you tried to describe the condition, as best you could, but without actually inspecting the problem, one can only take a WAG on what the problem is. The description of an eye brow, most often is the condition of nails not properly driven. Or, too short of nails were used, and are backing out. This is just a WAG. I would contact a roofer, not associated with the original installer, and get an evaluation. Then you can take it from there. Though I feel IKO would be my last choice for roof covering, I wouldn't rant about their reps not caring about the product. Since you are not the installer, and really don't know that it's faulty material, they really aren't going to get involved with a free onsite evaluation, and I can't blame them. If it is a faulty product, the original roofer should have no problem having IKO back their material. My WAG is it's poor installation. > Last August I had a complete new roof installed on my house in Western NY. > The pitch is 12/12 with 2x12 rafters on 16" centers and 1/2" plywood. Grace [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the roof and venture an opinion without ripping stuff off the roof. Right > now I am real sorry to have bought their shingles. Why do you assume its a shingle problem out of the gate? From what you have stated in your posts there is nothing pointing directly at the shingle being the problem (it rarely is). Going back to the begninng, why havent you contacted the installer to have them come out and see whats going on? The roof isnt even a year old. Most reputable contractors would surely come out on a roof this new. If the contractor deems it to be a manufacturer issue they will contact their supplier who will in turn contact the IKO rep. who will come out to look at the problem. Its a single phone call away and here you are calling IKO, posting to a NG, and who the hell knows what else. I have a feeling there is something you are not telling us as to why you havent contacted the original installer. If you used some fly-by-night, slip shod, drifter to install your roof because he was the cheapest then it serves you right but if you used a reputable roofer/contractor they would more than likely be out within days to look at a problem. Mark Well I thought I might have a shingle problem because the guy installing my siding told me he thought my shingles might be bad. He thought that they were installed OK. This guy has at least 40 years installing roofing and siding so I felt he probably knew what he was talking about. I also have had problems with other material on this job. First the foam underlayment sheathing for the siding was bad. It was way undersize in thickness. The supplier had a whole bunch more of it. Had to go to another supplier to get replacement material. Manufacturer gave me credit for the bad material. Their customer service took care of the problem and sent a man to the supplier to examine their stock. Yep, it was all bad. Their customer service gave me service. The next problem was with the vinyl siding that had collapsed locks and the panels would not slide at all. They sent a rep to check the inventory reserved for me at the supplier and sure enough it was also all bad. I returned what I had and got credit for my trouble. Once again their customer service gave me service. A few years ago I had a problem with an Andersen window. They sent a guy right out to inspect it. So for those reasons I thought maybe I might at least get an opinion from IKO without having to rip some shingles off my roof. It does rain here you know. You don't even get to talk to a person who knows what a shingle looks like. Also I was not buying my material from Mr 2nd. I was dealing with a well known building material supplier that has been in business for generations. I have dealt with them for years and never had a problem. They have a very good reputation. The guy that installed the roofing is the same one that did the construction and is not some yo yo fly by night contractor. I will certainly be talking to him. Like I said before I contacted IKO because of the opinion of my siding installer. I had hopes that the shingles just needed to see a little more hot weather to lay down but he said that they should have been stuck down flat already since they were installed in August. It is not a nail popping problem because we looked for that. The shingles are architectural shingles and the part that is popped up is the top layer only and not the whole thickness of the shingle. Other than a nail sticking up what installation error would cause this problem? >> Last August I had a complete new roof installed on my house in Western >> NY. The pitch is 12/12 with 2x12 rafters on 16" centers and 1/2" plywood. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Mark > So for those reasons I thought maybe I might at least get an opinion from > IKO without having to rip some shingles off my roof. It does rain here you [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > only and not the whole thickness of the shingle. Other than a nail sticking > up what installation error would cause this problem? If the laminations in the architectural shingles are separating, it's a shingle problem. It may have been caused by mishandling or a problem in manufacturing. You need to get your installer's opinion in writing, the building materials supplier's opinion would also help, take pictures and send the package to IKO. If you were as unclear with IKO as you were in your inital post, it's not surprising that you didn't get far with them. Everyone needs details to make a diagnosis. Good luck with it. R "and the part that is popped up is the top layer only and not the whole thickness of the shingle." I don't follow as to what you mean by this. Can you reword this so we could get a better idea as to what exactly you are referring to as "popping". Architectural shingles will lay higher and bulkier that cheap 219/sq shingles. Is part of the shingle actually lifting away from the row underneath or what exactly? > It is not a nail popping problem because we looked for that. The shingles > are architectural shingles and the part that is popped up is the top layer > only and not the whole thickness of the shingle. Other than a nail > sticking up what installation error would cause this problem? > "and the part that is popped up is the top layer only and not the > whole thickness of the shingle." [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> than a nail sticking up what installation error would cause this >> problem? Why not just post some pics in like alt.binaries.test or something. No one can tell from words with this. Pics=1000 words. Ground shot, up on roof shots, macro shots. No digital camera? They have single use ones now at drug store chains like Eckerd, CVS, Rite-Aid. Could always feed the Waltons a few bucks. They need it. Down to their last 50 billion. > Why not just post some pics in like alt.binaries.test or something. No > one can tell from words with this. Pics=1000 words. Ground shot, up on > roof shots, macro shots. No digital camera? They have single use ones now > at drug store chains like Eckerd, CVS, Rite-Aid. Could always feed the > Waltons a few bucks. They need it. Down to their last 50 billion. heh heh heh <pinching my nose> uh...why not just post some pics in like alt.binaries.test or something blrblrblrblrblrblr whew! I need pictures. I like pictures. Ggeeez I wish people would post pictures. <voice getting higher pitched now> No digital cam? Have you thought about a single use camera? heh heh heh -- Al Bundy ! the man with the plan >> Why not just post some pics in like alt.binaries.test or something. >> No one can tell from words with this. Pics=1000 words. Ground shot, [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Al Bundy ! the man with the plan Dude. Whatever you had was laced with strychnine. > Other than a nail sticking up what installation error would cause this > problem? A _possible_ cause could be, nailing off-line. If the fastener doesn't penetrate through the actual lamination, the bottom portion of the shingle could work loose from the top portion, causing delamination of the material. In other words, the fastener must catch through the actual lamination, or the laminated material becomes delaminated. > Well I thought I might have a shingle problem because the guy installing my > siding told me he thought my shingles might be bad. He thought that they [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >> >>Mark Delaminating can be caused, on the installer side, by poor storage and more likely by "breaking" the shingles over the ridge or on a plank. Its very common that roofers will stack their shingles so they are bent over the ridge as a way to keep them from sliding off the roof. As well, on steep pitches it is common to see someone with shigles laying on a plank and up the roof bending them at sharp angle. Both of these can cause them to delaminate after they are laid flat. If it were a manufacturing problem I would expect it to be fairly wide spread across the roof or in clear areas or patterns depending on how they were installed. If the roofer shuffles the bundles (works from several bundles at a time to avoid patterns) a single bundle, or bundles, of bad shingles could be scattered over a large portion of the roof. However if they lay a couple courses traversing the roof, like a typewritter types, then you would see a single bundle lined up side by side. If you have a handfull, or a couple handfulls, of bad shingles I would assume it was the handling of those shingles. The "eyebrow" feature that you mention makes me think these shingles perhaps sat bent, stretching the top layer, for a time during installation but its only a guess. Simply contact the installer, have him contact his supplier who will inturn contact the local rep for IKO, setup a meeting at your home and be there for the meeting. Mark > Last August I had a complete new roof installed on my house in Western NY. > The pitch is 12/12 with 2x12 rafters on 16" centers and 1/2" plywood. Grace > TRI-FLEX underlayment was used under the shingles. The shingles were > installed using a power nailer. The shingles were IKO Cambridge Driftwood > DIM30(3) . i hear ya, no biggie man it's just pleats from where they mighta nailed the heck out of it Last august... yeah, you would think the summer would have laid them down why not heat them manually at the worse places and call it done a grill size propane tank, and a tip, like they use to remove paint from the side of a house. I think they will surrender to that sort of heat best to ya I dropped a couple of photo's of the shingles in photo bucket that should explain better what is the problem with my shingles. Here is the link. > Last August I had a complete new roof installed on my house in Western NY. > The pitch is 12/12 with 2x12 rafters on 16" centers and 1/2" plywood. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > look at the roof and venture an opinion without ripping stuff off the > roof. Right now I am real sorry to have bought their shingles. > I dropped a couple of photo's of the shingles in photo bucket that should > explain better what is the problem with my shingles. Here is the link. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>look at the roof and venture an opinion without ripping stuff off the >>roof. Right now I am real sorry to have bought their shingles. In the images you posted the problem is not as you said where just the top layer of the shingle is delaminating. In the images, especially the closeup, the entire shingle is crowning not the top layer. In the second image you can also see that the base layer of the shingle is the problem. Judging by the images I would still guess you will find its an installation/structure issue but IKO could well have had a problem with the shingle substrate or adhesive application or something like that but I would be surprised. I dont know if those images are very recent but even the ridge cap has not laid down. Even in cool/cold weather shingles will lay down in a single day, or two, of 40 degree weather with sun. They wont be completely adhered/sealed to the shingle below but even in that weather they will stick enough that, while it will be easy, you will have to coax them apart with a flat bar if needed. While much of the field looks like it has infact laid down, the cap doesnt look very good and of course the problem shingles are, well, a problem. What are the insulation and ventilation details for the roof/attic space other than the continuous ridge vent? Can you get up in the attic and see the underside of the ridge vent? Soffit vents? Attic temp? It doesnt look like a sheathing problem as the crowning is pretty random. It would be interesting to see a picture looking down the courses of shingles at a low angle from up on the roof. I would be very interested to hear what your installer and IKO have to say about it, please keep us informed of the situation. Thanks for the pics. Mark > I dropped a couple of photo's of the shingles in photo bucket that should > explain better what is the problem with my shingles. Here is the link. > http://photobucket.com/albums/e375/bitternut/? You are looking at an installation problem. It is not the shingles themselves. Your earlier description muddied the waters - the shingles are not delaminating. The deformed shingles will never lay down on their own, no matter how hot it gets, and those peaks will drastically shorten the life expectancy of the shingles. Your contractor needs to correct the situation. It's probably easier to just pull the affected areas and reshingle instead of trying to replace individual shingles. Replacing individual shingles is more likely to damage the surrounding shingles, particularly with dimensional shingles. R >>I dropped a couple of photo's of the shingles in photo bucket that should >>explain better what is the problem with my shingles. Here is the link. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > R Rico, Just for sh*ts and giggles what would your guess be for the cause of this on the installation. I have thought of several possibilities but they all seem too ludicrous to have been overlooked/not caught on the install. Provided the roof was fairly flat after installation, just needing some sun to lay them down, what would you guess would cause these to crown like this after the fact? The OP never said the roof was EVER flat but I am just assuming if, as he said, a 40 year veteran of the trade (talk is cheap) put them down he never would have walked away from a shingle laying like that at the point of install. Mark The job was all totally brand new construction. I had the old low pitched roof ripped off down to the top plate. Everything above the top plate was replaced with brand new. Old roof pitch was about 2-1/2 x 12 and new is 12/12. Roof joists are douglas fir 2x12 on 16" centers with 1/2" plywood decking. Roof decking was FLAT AND BRAND SPANKING NEW WITH NO RAIN. Was covered up with the tri-flex and shingled within a few days. Ice and water shield was also installed where required. Never got wet. Weather was as close to perfect for installing shingles, warm but not too hot. I don't know how much experience the roofing installer has for sure but I do know he has been at it for quite some time. The guy doing my siding installation is the guy with about 40 years experience and he is the one that said my roof did not look right to him. He has no interest in the shingles in any way and was just giving me his observation. He did not know who put them on, only that he felt they were not as they should be. He is over 65 years old and no longer does roofing so he would not be looking to gain more work for himself repairing it. >>>I dropped a couple of photo's of the shingles in photo bucket that should >>>explain better what is the problem with my shingles. Here is the link. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Mark > The job was all totally brand new construction. I had the old low pitched > roof ripped off down to the top plate. Everything above the top plate was [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> >>Mark Well, what I meant by "flat" was, were these eyebrows there from the day the roof was installed and they just never went away, or was the roof fairly flat after the installation was complete and these eyebrows then appeared. Architectural shingles are never very flat when the roof is installed. The roof has a VERY dimensional look until the sun lays them all down flat. I was initially under the assumption that these eyebrows "popped up" over time. But they may have just been there from the day they were installed, which would be easier to believe. At this point its just interesting to figure out just what happened. Really serves no other purpose as your course of action is there waiting for you. Mark After looking at the pictures, I would guess your looking at staple pops. A little drastic, but it the fasteners are popping due to walking on the roof or just not holding, I suppose it's possible. Easiest way to tell for certain is to make a trip to the roof and {gently} life one of the popped shingles and look underneath. If there's a nail or staple that is holding it up I would just pull it out and use roofing cement, re-seal the shingle back down (your roofer will do this as a part of his guarantee.) It's not uncommon to find a few pops even after a few years (usually due to winter weather). If there's nothing holding the shingle up, they were probably installed that way. (No other explanation.) Dennis >> The job was all totally brand new construction. I had the old low pitched >> roof ripped off down to the top plate. Everything above the top plate was [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Mark > You are looking at an installation problem. It is not the shingles > themselves. Your earlier description muddied the waters - the shingles [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hot it gets, and those peaks will drastically shorten the life > expectancy of the shingles. I agree with everything pointing at an installation problem. It looks as if (I believe it was M&S said) the shingles were stored/flopped over the peak. If one was to install without flattening the material first, you would get the humped/eye brow look. Installing in this fashion, the material will never lay down flat. >>You are looking at an installation problem. It is not the shingles >>themselves. Your earlier description muddied the waters - the shingles [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the humped/eye brow look. Installing in this fashion, the material will > never lay down flat. That is most likely the case, they got stretched while laying over the ridge for a period and some memory caused them to stay humped, or go back to being humped. I cant really see the -go back to being humped- thing working, and then on the otherhand I cant see any installer laying them like that and thinking they will flatten. Mark As I stated earlier the shingles were installed in August of this year and we had plenty of hot sunny days to stick them down. The ridge vent shingles were cut from regular 3 and 1 shingles I think. The attic space under the roof is fully wide open yet with plenty of ventilation. Rafter bays are wide open as well as entire attic space. One big room 24 x 40. Soffit is fully vented with full ridge vent so venting could not be the cause. The pictures were taken a week or so ago. I printed out a couple and showed them to the building supplier where I purchased my material from. There were at least 6 of their employees that looked at the pictures and they had never seen shingles do that before. They were all people that had previous experience installing shingles although none of them were strictly roofers. I did receive a kit from IKO to proceed with a shingle claim. I will be getting the contractor over to look at his handi-work and see what he says. Seems like the consensus here is that the installation is likely at fault. I imagine he won't be volunteering to take the blame. I probably am not going to be happy with what happens no matter who repairs the job. Probably going to have to look at a lumpy roof for a few years till they need replacing but we will see. Seems like a repair could cause more or as many problems since it would be highly unlikely that the new gutters and other trim would not get beat up with a new shingle installation. > Last August I had a complete new roof installed on my house in Western NY. > The pitch is 12/12 with 2x12 rafters on 16" centers and 1/2" plywood. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > look at the roof and venture an opinion without ripping stuff off the > roof. Right now I am real sorry to have bought their shingles. > As I stated earlier the shingles were installed in August of this year and > we had plenty of hot sunny days to stick them down. The ridge vent shingles [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>look at the roof and venture an opinion without ripping stuff off the >>roof. Right now I am real sorry to have bought their shingles. Your only recourse will be a meeting with the installer and the IKO rep.. Additionaly you could include a representative/salesman from the lumberyard who supplied the shingles. What would be best is if this were to take place on your property, with you present. It will be between IKO and in installer to decide who is responsible. Where you have not met with the installer yet it is all speculation, which is rarely good, but... coming to a conclusion could be painfull if the installer simply doesnt agree with IKO that its his fault, if that is the decision. Your installers only recourse is to then prove that it IS infact a shingle problem to defend his position if he so takes it. Sadly, if things dont go smoothly, and I hope for you they do, your only recourse would be to persue the matter in court. There is no reason to live with the roof in its current state and there is also no reason that the gutters and trim would be damaged during repair/replacement. Gutters can be taped off and the repair can be done without trashing anything. Re-roofs are done all the time without damaging existing trim and gutters. Mark I searched through some pictures my wife took and I think maybe I have found pretty strong evidence that may suggest installation or handling is the cause. One picture shows the shingles being stacked over the ridge when delivered and the other shows problem shingles shortly after installation. The shingles were installed within a couple of days but the bundles did sit on the ridge until being installed. I did not realize how they had stored them on the roof till I checked the picture. I really did not notice any problem at first because they were all kind of lumpy and I fully expected everything would lay down in time. Guess I was wrong. Still will have to get a couple of the problem shingles checked by IKO to be sure. Here is the link with a couple of new photo's depicting the problem early and the storage of bundles. http://photobucket.com/albums/e375/bitternut/ >> As I stated earlier the shingles were installed in August of this year >> and we had plenty of hot sunny days to stick them down. The ridge vent [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Mark > I searched through some pictures my wife took and I think maybe I have found > pretty strong evidence that may suggest installation or handling is the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://photobucket.com/albums/e375/bitternut/ Here's the deal - your roofer was an idjit (tell him I said that - he needs to hear it). I don't care how many roofs he's installed, because that one picture showing them laying the bundles on the ridge shows at least several things they did wrong. That one picture is worth buying your wife a nice present (tell her I told you to do it) because it shows exactly what caused the problem. The architectural shingles are much heavier and much stiffer than three tab shingles - they do not want to bend. Laying them over a 12/12 ridge for a couple of days is a quick way to ruin them. Nailing some 2x4s on the flat is a lazy man's way of working a roof. He should have used roof brackets like those holding up the plank the workers are standing on for the whole roof. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/scaffolding/supported/specialty.html#Roof%20Brac ket%20Scaffolds Laying all those shingles on the ridge is bad practice even with three tab shingles because you're never going to put all of them up that high on the roof. You can see exactly where he started using the shingles that were stored on the ridge as all of thedeformed shingles are fairly close to the ridge. As someone else posted, there's only one way to handle this unless you want to make a hobby out of it and have a lot of back and forth. Have the IKO rep and your roofer meet with you at the same time. Tell them to duke it out between them, and let you know which of them is paying for the fix. As I said before, don't let the roofer try to replace individual shingles as he's likely to damage the ones above it getting the bad ones out. Good luck with it. R >> I searched through some pictures my wife took and I think maybe I >> have found pretty strong evidence that may suggest installation or [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > R Like someone said a bit back in the thread, picture=1000 words :-) I learned something reading this thread. Also: > Laying all those shingles on the ridge is bad practice even with three > tab shingles And I thought they they just laid them up on the ridge stacked the way I've always seen them because it looked cool. Kidding aside, even on 4/12 roofs I see them all stack them the same. Some just flat scattered around but the ones on the ridge they stack a couple of bundles atop each other flat on each side of the ridge then one across the ridge so the ends of that one are supported keeping the "ridge bundle" virtually flat. Yes?? Boy if that's the case that's a lot of trash up on the ridge in that pic. >>>I searched through some pictures my wife took and I think maybe I >>>have found pretty strong evidence that may suggest installation or [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Boy if that's the case that's a lot of trash up on the ridge in that pic. Thats the best way to do it if you have a flat enough roof that the bundles wont slide. Bundles on either side of the ridge running parallel, stack them til' you can bridge bundles perpendicular to the ridge and have them stay flat. Of course you have to be carefull not to concentrate too much weight in one area. The way we do it on a steep roof is to set several sets of jacks and planks placing enough bundles on the jacks above to fill the gap between jacks. Pulling shingles from the planks above, as you empty that set of jacks, you just move those down, lay a few more courses (so your not laying shingles down at your toes), then move up to that set of jacks in a leapfrog manner. We have one set of jacks on the other side of the ridge holding the shingles for the last 5' of roof. This keeps from stacking bundles on the planks your standing on which can really scuff the hell out of the new roof. I have seen many pull down their planks leaving clear linear lines of damage right where the planks were where tools, toes of shoes, and bundles of shingles have scuffed the brand new roof. Mark > I searched through some pictures my wife took and I think maybe I have found > pretty strong evidence that may suggest installation or handling is the [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >> >>Mark Oh God, While I feel a little bad for the guy the simple fact of the matter is you have him by the balls on this one. It couldnt be any more clear, you have him solely and squarely by the balls. Vice grips couldnt even give you a better grip. What is sad is that for the price of a dozen roof jacks (they cost about 7.00 each at the lumberyard) and a half a dozen planks (another 100.00), not only would the job have been much safer and smoother, but this never would have happened. I would guaranty you they wanted to take advantage of the boom truck being there, and wanted to load ALL the shingles to the roof to eliminate the need for carrying them up the ladder. They broke _every_ bundle over the ridge, not just a couple. If they didnt want to lug any up a ladder what would have been wiser would have been to set jacks, and have the shingles delivered over two days, 1/2 on day one, 1/2 on day two, because you wouldnt have room on the jacks for the whole roof. That or rent a laddervator. Very sad for both you, and him. While I agree completely he f*cked up its always sad to see someone pull a boner as bad as this one. You can see in the image where they are setting the window that the problem existed within days/weeks of the initial installation. You hold all the cards and are calling all the shots at this point. Mark |
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