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Homeowner Forum / Construction / December 2005"Paint On" Insulation.
A friend of mine is researching a paint on insulation. The company will not give her an R rating, doesn't seem to be much info readily available. They use it many places, and yes, any paint will improve the R rating (a decent paint)... What do you think. Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint) A stupid relative of mine paid about 2x that for insulating paint - do a web search - search on the name of the company flogging the product - sounds like snake oil to me. I bought the additive, sold by Insulad which is ceramic beads by 3M, I tried it on a heating duct and felt no difference on a A B test and my IR thermometer registered none. A friend of mine at perhaps the largest US paint co said they were researching it to sell it, well years later they still dont. No R yes it has NO R value, maybe it has a bit of Radiant value like aluminum foil, but I have seen no independant verified test, So id say it is little value, Trac enclosed Cellular Shades and insulating curtains or liners are a better proven place to help a rooms R value. > I bought the additive, sold by Insulad which is ceramic beads by 3M, I > tried.., Trac enclosed Cellular > Shades and insulating curtains or liners are a better proven place to > help a rooms R value. Thank you nice people for the comments. I just sent this topic link to my friend... snake oil! lol... I've even searched Nasa's site, seems like the poppycock centered around Nasa's use. I couldn't find any mention of it. but maybe I didn't look hard enough. CW This is Nasa talking about building a rocket ...rocket which is wrapped with insulating tape and painted with an insulating paint. http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/digidoc/report/rm/28/NACA-RM-L56E28.PDF aha! so there is an insulating paint, or at least they call it that. Do a google search for insulating paint web sites - look at how they are set up - testimonials are a big deal - one was even located near Kennedy Space Center - FL is a fav place for rip off artists - laws make it tough to get judgements against people in that state - why did OJ move to FL - to play golf - no to avoid paying everything he owed in the murder case judgment settlement. Once saw the history of one of the big snake oil guru's - think slick 50 was his last one - boy did that guy have a past - made tons of money. White belt/shoes and cranberry colored polyester pants/shirt - is he a snake oil salesman or a preacher - he preaches only on Sunday - Praise The Lord and Pass The Loot. Oh ain't life so much fun. >I bought the additive, sold by Insulad which is ceramic beads by 3M, I > tried it on a heating duct and felt no difference on a A B test and my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Radiant value like aluminum foil, but I have seen no independant > verified test Something to look into: "Ceramic beads" in a resin matrix is pretty much what Superior Products sells, and their products have been evaluated by independent labs but I'm no expert so I don't know if the tests are meaningful. Superior Products has several different formulations for different jobs. One is Supertherm which they advertise as an R-19.5. "SPF2001F" is more for resisting flames, not really for environmental insulation. Here's a link to their Web site's list of lab testing: http://www.supertherm.net/st_tests.htm Steve Richardson St Louis MO >A friend of mine is researching a paint on insulation. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint) its a scam but yes, any paint provides some insulation.. this crap mabye a bit more than usual, not enough to be worth the expense though. If something needs to be insulated it is usually at least 100x as much such a coating provides. if its to 'insulate' against solar radiation, white or silver reflective paint is worth it. Phil Scott > A friend of mine is researching a paint on insulation. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint) > The company will not give her an R rating It's insullation but they won't give an R value. Can anything but scam possibly come to mind? Technically a piece of tissue paper "will improve the R rating". Better have a calculator with lotsa decimal places though. Words like "helps", "can", "can help", "may", "improve", etc are what I call marketing weasel words and are done in a way that you mind hears "will". Weasel words and phrases are lawsuit "outs" because they can't be quantified. I am not sure of what your specific application is but have they looked into the astec systems? check out http://www.icc-astec.com/Industrial/astec_app8.htm?type=indus or http://www.icc-astec.com/Walls/astec7.htm?type=walls. > http://www.icc-astec.com/Industrial/astec_app8.htm?type=indus or > http://www.icc-astec.com/Walls/astec7.htm?type=walls. I just sent them an email, asking them about an R rating. and invited them to post something here about this. I told them, some people call paint on insulation "snake oil". I love it! If it can be agreed that an R-Value indicates insulating power or thermal resistance I wonder who in this news article can explain the physics of thermal conductivity? It is thermal conductivity that is the fundamental principle from which the R-Value is derived. Any value over 0 does in fact indicate desireable results. The objective of course is achieving a measurable value that would by consensus be considered meaningful but one must agree that in most cases those that claim a coating has insulating properties is like a farmer claiming his bull has tits. <%= Clinton Gallagher METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service" NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com URL http://metromilwaukee.com/ URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/ >> http://www.icc-astec.com/Industrial/astec_app8.htm?type=indus or >> http://www.icc-astec.com/Walls/astec7.htm?type=walls. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I love it! > If it can be agreed that an R-Value indicates insulating power or thermal > resistance I wonder who in this news article can explain the physics of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > those that claim a coating has insulating properties is like a farmer > claiming his bull has tits. well sir, bulls do have tits. yeah. An old country expression of mine is, "As useless as tits on a boar hog". Think that sums up the worth of insulating paint. > An old country expression of mine is, "As useless as tits on a boar > hog". Think that sums up the worth of insulating paint. > It depends on what the insulation is for. Intumescent (sp?) paint has great thermal properties under certain conditions. :-) What condition does insulating paint work, surely not what they advertise or duct work, I tried it. > What condition does insulating paint work, surely not what they > advertise or duct work, I tried it. > Intumescent paint is a very specialized product. When heated to the right temperature, it expands and acts as a thermal insulator from fire........used to protect steel, but retain the look of a bare structure. > insulating paint work, surely not what they > advertise or duct work, I tried it. how much did it cost? Apx 35$ to treat a gallon, its 3M ceramic beads, interesting 3M doesnt sell it as paint nor will Sherwin Williams market it as a way to save on utilities. But it may have Radiant qualities like aluminum foil but I cant test it > But it may have Radiant qualities like aluminum foil but I > cant test it yeah, it would take a calculator to see how much energy you saved. I think the problem with paint insulation, there is no interm space to slow down the transfer of energy. The paint sticks right to the thing being insulated. Hi- Lets talk about R-values for a moment. R-value is the measurement of how effectively a material resists the transfer of heat via conduction. The higher the R-value, the less heat transfer can take place. Insulating paints/coatings do not work via conduction -they are typically classified as radiation control coatings because of thier ability to radiate heat away from thier surfaces. Most are using borsillicate ceramic particles to achieve this ability.Does ceramic work to radiate heat away from a surface? Yes- example -ceramic tiles under space shuttles. Interesting fact- The ceramic's rate of radiation increases significantly as the amount of radiation that is directed at them increases. Heat travels three ways- conduction - like when you pick up a hot pan. Convection-air movement -like forced air gas heat furnaces and radiation- like the sun. When you walk behind a tree on a sunny day it feels cooler, but the ambient air temperture has not changed. R-values have become the standard when discussing insulation because most insulation companies manufacture materials that are effective in slowing down heat transfer. Great for insulating your houses in the winter. Not so great for cooling in the summer ,because the heat coming into the house is stored in the mass insulation and released-usually at night. Ever go into an attic on a summer night? It's pretty hot. Do insulating paints have a place in residential homes? Yes- but the more objects radiating heat the better the paints will perform. In other words if you paint an empty roof with a radiation control coating it won't be very effective. Now fill the room with furniture and people all radiating heat and now the walls have something to reflect back into the room. This effect would be equal IN PERFORMENCE to other insulation materials having known R-values of 5 to possiblly R-9. Because these paints are more than regular paints, I would paint outside walls and second story ceilings first, To test if you have the "real deal" clean and paint a run of hot air duct work. After it dries compare it in temperature with a run of uncoated duct work. Does it feel cooler? If you have the 'real deal" it will. By the way this little demonstration has another benefit- more hot air is comming out the other end of the run and not radiating off the duct ork.w The most effective use of radiation control coatings is not in the residential home market. Rather it is in the commercial/industrial roofing market. Most commercial roofs are large black heat magnets that bake and crack in the sun and cause Air conditioning units to work like crazy. Have you ever heard of an electrical brown-out in the winter? Now - if could cool the roof by protecting it with a white reflective radiation control coating that would stand up to the elements and use it as part of a system that would stop leaks, you would really have something. Which, by the way, we do. Go to www.icc-astec.com to learn more about this great 10 year warrantied roof system. Most home owners are probably asking "Why can't I put this stuff on MY asphalt shingle roof?" 1) Would you actually consider PAINTING your roof, all on color, white? - normal answer- NO. 2) Asphalt shingles tend to absorb a tremendous amount of paint- translation- it will cost as much to paint the roof as to replace the roof.3) Why isn't this true on commericial roofs? They are not usually made of asphalt shingles. 4 ) Roofers don't do this kind of work. 5) It is dangerous to paint a pitched surface- you will slip and fall off the roof. . > A friend of mine is researching a paint on insulation. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint) > Hi- > Lets talk about R-values for a moment. R-value is the measurement [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > radiation- like the sun. When you walk behind a tree on a sunny day it > feels cooler, but the ambient air temperture has not changed. So a POI is good for surfaces where radiation occurs. > R-values have become the standard when discussing insulation > because most insulation companies manufacture materials that are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > released-usually at night. Ever go into an attic on a summer night? > It's pretty hot. I don't know, painting ductwork can take alot of hours...the paint costs alot... how much is it anyway "the real deal"... It is flammable? no perfume' You say it has ceramic in the paint...kynite? kiln resistant dirt? So you're idea for home use is, paint entire room and let the sun in? so does it come in every color under the sun? How much does it cost per 5 gallon. Non-flammable, no perfume, has a paint smell, the ceramic is borosilicate. It can be tinted, but dark colors are not a good idea because they " work against" the ceramic. Meaning the surface will not radiate or emit as much heat away. Costs - The product sells for $36.00 per gallon and is sold in 5-gallon containers. ($180.00) I have never heard of nano-paint so I cannot comment on it. IMPORTANT - ICC MARKETS ITS' PRODUCTS AND SYSTEMS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY TO THE COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL SEGMENT OF THE MARKET. ALTHOUGH INTERIOR RESIDENTIAL APPLICATIONS HAVE BEEN DONE, THEY ACCOUNT FOR AN EXTREMELY SMALL PORTION OF ICC'S BUSINESS. ICC PRODUCTS ARE APPLIED BY AUTHORIZED APPLICATORS. THESE APPLICATORS ARE TYPICALLY COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL CONTRACTING FIRMS WHO DO NOT CATER TO THE RESIDENTIAL MARKET. Very well said explanation but some paragraphs and white space make reading much easier. <%= Clinton Gallagher METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service" NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com URL http://metromilwaukee.com/ URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/ > Non-flammable, no perfume, has a paint smell, the ceramic is > borosilicate. It can be tinted, but dark colors are not a good idea [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL CONTRACTING FIRMS WHO DO NOT CATER TO THE > RESIDENTIAL MARKET. > Very well said explanation but some paragraphs and white space make reading > much easier. lol someone figured up, they do 57,000 SF a day, they have been doing that for 20 years. BS bu 1109, Dark colors absorbe heat and can cause the paint to FAIL because of the Ceramic additive causes separation of paint and affects bonding , the paint is diluted-reduced in film strength. Bs Bu 1109crap "Authorized Applicators" apply it only, you mean any painter that moves a roller and doesnt hopefully work to drunk, and what would you care who applies it, you dont, you just push it through BS I think he is talking about people who have been in business and can show a history of professional work. > Hi- > Lets talk about R-values for a moment. R-value is the measurement [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > dangerous to paint a pitched surface- you will slip and fall off the > roof. I also wanted to see if you have heard of nano-tech paint? seems like my dear lady friend ran across this when searching for this paint....do the nano's paint themselves onto a wall? damn the insullation properties, I'd pay good for paint that spread itself I did just that, painted heating ductwork which reaches 140f and No difference was felt or measured using an IR thermometer to an unpainted adjacent section, and yes I have the " Real Deal" So does it work, well show me a verifiable independant labs test, one I can contact. Sure the space shuttle, and how thick are those tiles? We are talking about paint here. And I put it on heavy in latex double coat. > I did just that, painted tiles? We are talking about paint > here. And I put it on heavy in latex double coat. what type of heat was you using no difference...hmmm not to mention, the paint you had on there, maybe it was a nice paint that also reflected heat maybe you measured that wall when the sun was on the exterior but you checked the radiant paint at night... I would think you should get at least 2 degree difference. 2 lousy degrees Hey these days, if not gained those 2 lousy degrees can trip the set point on a thermostat and cost a couple hundred bucks in winter heating cost. If the cost of the coating does not offset the difference in utility costs its a worthy pursuit ainna? <%= Clinton Gallagher >> I did just that, painted tiles? We are talking about paint >> here. And I put it on heavy in latex double coat. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I would think you should get at least 2 degree difference. > 2 lousy degrees > > I would think you should get at least 2 degree difference. > > 2 lousy degrees well sure, but dude claims he had no improvement. not even 2 degrees. You would think that at $35$ a gallon he could get at least ONE degree improvement. "You would think that at $35$ a gallon he could get at least ONE degree improvement. " I just looked at the insuladd website and I couldn't see where they mention doing pipes and duct work. They are also selling their additive for $17 per gallon, and their paint for about $26 a gallon, so maybe you're getting what you pay for. BS bu11d09, show independant results , verifiable, independant refrences, It is a 3M product probably purchased for 1/100 th the cost from 3M. Yea BS commercial customers, you would sell it to your dog if he would pay, beggar. Your talk is unsubstantited crappolaa, snake oil. Put up or shut up. To: M ransley, You say unsubstantiated, but here is the link to some of the testing done: http://www.icc-astec.com/testing12.htm?type=asphalt and as you can see it has been tested by Christian Testing, the US Dept. of the Air Force, TRW, and PRI. So I think that covers putting up, I also believe there are plenty of references available as well. Why are you slamming a product you don't know anything about? Is it coatings in general that bother you? m Ransley: What type of paint did you use anyway? And didn't you ask for verifiable tests when you researched your purchase? Anyway I can't see how you can say everything out there is bad, just because you had a bad experience. If we all did that, then we would be riding bicycles rather then cars, because almost everyone has gotten stuck with a lemon once in their life. Im a professional painting contractor employing 15 year round, I know coatings better than you as Ive done this since 83. I have done my own A B tests using 3M ceramic suspended in latex of 2 coats using an IR thermometer on 145f surfaces in 65f interiors and found No difference of even 1/100 of a degree on an adjoining surface. Moore, Sherwin Williams, P&L, Pittsburgh all the biggest suppliers would like to get on a Green money maker, but don't. so I tell the group why, because it doesn't work as you advertise, and yes I know and deal with upper management of a few major paint companies. I can tell you who does an who doesn't back warrantees with cash. On IR radiant rating, I have yet to see a Independently verifiable test. I want to verify it with a call. So I say BS and it can be bought allot cheaper then what you hawk it for. Its a 3M product , not exclusive to you, but has been out for 20 ? years? you just want the uninformed to be gullible and buy you line of Snake Oil. Again put up or shut up. There is no magic to a white coating reflecting away heat. First I don't hawk any 3m products and I don't work for insuladd. I showed you the links to the testing of our products but if you want to see thermal imaging then look at this link: http://www.icc-astec.com/Roofs/Asphalt/gallery13.htm?type=asphalt but if you do not believe our testing then you can test all you want - by all means do all the testing you want and I am very confident that you will find our products stand up to our claims because we have done the testing. I cannot speak about insuladd though. You say there is no magic to a white coating reflecting away heat, and I agree radiation will be reflected away more by any white surface then a black surface, but chemical content can increase reflectivity as well as other properties. We market our products as roofing systems and elastomeric coatings, not as a house paint. Most of the time we do not push the energy savings but rather the cost effectiveness and value of our roofing solutions to traditional roofing. So I really can't speak for the paint manufacturers but we stand behind all of our claims with a renewable 10 year warranty. and ASTM standards aren't good enough testing? I am sure you can buy all sorts of things cheaper, which brings me back to what I said about you get what you pay for, but specifically you said, "Apx 35$ to treat a gallon" is what you used, I was saying that their web site says $17. Again I am not trying to hawk any paints or additives for anyone. But if I get one bad paint salesman it doesn't mean that I am never going to use paint again either. If Sherwin Williams doesn't meet my testing I am not going to call Pittsburgh a bunch of snakeoil sellers. That just doesn't make any sense. I have another question for you: You said that, "using an IR thermometer on 145f surfaces in 65f interiors and found No difference of even 1/100 of a degree on an adjoining surface." Just so I am clear as to what you did, you used the product you bought and painted a duct and left a portion unpainted and then took a thermal reading on both the painted portion and the unpainted portion and there was no difference, that's what your saying? Because I know with our product (as a demonstration piece) we have taken a piece of metal - half coated, half not, placed a heat lamp over it and then measured the temperature underneath the metal (to simulate a metal roof) and the side that was coated was definitely cooler. That is an independently verifiable experiment isn't it? That is what I did as you describe, at what mil thickness does your product apply, what is coverage per gallon, Does it have an R rating-verifiable. This is a ceramic , right. What is its heat rating and usable temp. What is the cost per single and 5, What type of aplications is this designed for. If you answered these sorry I missed it. all of the information is on our website, the msds sheets, the specs, the testings, everything. The only thing that is not there is the price, because of our warranty we prefer that it is applied by people who we know will make sure the surface prep is done correctly and that the seams are taken care of, etc. We market it for reply roofing systems, it has been used on tanks and walls, but the roofing application is our main niche, because we can ensure the product is used correctly and we can guarentee the results that we claim - it is the best value that we can offer. Obviously if someone wanted to paint they can find cheaper products to use in the paint application then us, but like I said we are a roof coating manufacturer. The original question did not mention the application, that is why I got invovled. Here is our web site: http://www.icc-astec.com/ > Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint) eeeeewwww! I love to sweep around the white steps do a little jig and lead the people on! DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT YO! Just kneel before us and admit! PAINT ON INSULATION IS SNAKE OIL!!! SAY IT AGAIN!!! I say it's SUNAKE OIL!!! piyah! This is one reason we do not cater to the homeowner. We prefer to cater to the professional whose livelyhood depends on making sound, fact based decisions. Some one who checks out references, has an idea of what ISO certification means. Has some knowledge of Cool Roofs and understands emmisivity. So far we have done over 300,000,000 square feet of application, but we have only been at it for 20 years. > This is one reason we do not cater to the homeowner. > We prefer to cater to the professional whose livelyhood depends on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 300,000,000 square feet of application, but we have only been at it > for 20 years. 300,000,000 SF...need any salesman? How much do get per sq. That's over 57,000 sq. ft. per working day for 20 years.  SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) bu11d09@gmail.com wrote: > This is one reason we do not cater to the homeowner. > We prefer to cater to the professional whose livelyhood depends on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 300,000,000 square feet of application, but we have only been at it > for 20 years. 300,000,000 SF...need any salesman? How much do get per sq. > That's over 57,000 sq. ft. per working day for 20 years. RFLMAO They must paint it on roofs, crop dusting style No, they paint their @sses so when they sit down on the job they're still working ;-) <%= Clinton Gallagher >> That's over 57,000 sq. ft. per working day for 20 years. > > RFLMAO > > They must paint it on roofs, crop dusting style > > That's over 57,000 sq. ft. per working day for 20 years. > > RFLMAO > > They must paint it on roofs, crop dusting style Actually it is done through contractors across the country so when you have the product being applied by a lot of people then the number is very realistic. Look into any of the coating manufactureres and you can see typical results. Or look into how many square feet of shingles goes down every day and it is very possible depending on the number of peopl eusing the product. >> Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint) > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >piyah! Agree with you all the way chickwing. Must be one of those "travelers" you hear about. Surface coating is not insulation. Insulation takes some mass, dead air or other medium, to resist heat transfer. Been a general contractor/electrician for over 20 years. Pure BS! "Surface coating is not insulation" Bill, I work for a manufacturer of coatings and we normally do not talk about the insulation value, we stress the value our coatings have in the roofing industry, as compared to traditional roofing, but I want to point out one thing. Any type of coating that is reflective, will reduce "heat gain" and thus lower "cooling costs" or it will insulate against heat gain - will it keep you warmer in the winter? - your better off with all the standard types of insulation, but will it keep you cooler in the summer - yes. And painting anything white will increase the reflectivity, but you can also have coatings with different content that makes it even more reflective and can give it additional properties. The tests are there guys. Between you and me, I live in NY and want some very thick fiberglass keeping my house warm, but if I lived in California or even had a building with a high cooling bill in the summer - the roof would be white - and it would have a coating on it. > "Surface coating is not insulation" > > Bill, I work for a manufacturer of coatings and we normally do not talk ...a high cooling > bill in the summer - the roof would be white - and it would have a > coating on it. well you have to admit, it took a long time for someone like yourself to finally say...IT SUCKS WIND FOR INSULATION but does well for reflection. I feel informed! :) Why is it you guys act so unprofessional? If you are going to qoute me then feel free to quote, but apperently we are talking about two different things. You see - COATINGS ARE GREAT FOR INSULATING AGAINST HEAT GAIN - does that make it easier for you? I said there are better products to insulate FROM THE COLD - so it depends on your particular application on what "sucks wind". > Why is it you guys act so unprofessional? "sucks wind". no proffessional is when you are up front about your business. If someone asks about a paint on insulation (and I sold roof coatings) I'd clear that up from jump street. That's just me. Even by virtue of the fact that you say "why is it you guys..." makes me think Im not the first one. Given the fact of the common misconceptions about your product, if it was me...? I would keep it a front priority to re-educate someone for the simple benefit of not looking like I'm trying to be sneaky. first someone asked about a paint on insulation but did not specify the application and so I offered a suggestion that could possibly work for them. Then almost everyone began ranting about snake oils and BS before they even had a chance to find out what I was talking about. Then after clearing the air and getting people to talk civilized rather then making judgements with out facts, we were able to get more information about the paints the one person used that did not work for him, but we still do not know what the original application was. I also provided multiple links to what our product is, what we claim it can do, the applications we use it for, and our testing standards - all upfront and very professional. I am not trying to be sneaky, just offer a suggestion without slamming an entire industry because of a few bad products. > I am not trying to be sneaky, just offer a suggestion without slamming > an entire industry because of a few bad products. I think the peoples reaction can be interpreted, "just shoot straight". Which you have, I was thinking the product and those like it were for painting interior walls for the purpose of insulation. Heck No! It's not. You wouldn't let me paint my walls with this would you? I appreciate your contribution here. I shure do. As I say, I feel educated now. I can confidently tell someone, oh! That is really a roof coating...but you might be able to generate some radiant heat if you paint an entire room with it. Thank you and I appreciate your comments. I would never recommend painting interior with our product but if you want to it does have other properties that could be of interest. Like I said before the best value we can offer is in specific applications for possibly exterior walls, tanks, but our biggie is roofs. A lot of our guys are industrial painters that have moved over into the roof coatings. first someone asked about a paint on insulation but did not specify the application and so I offered a suggestion that could possibly work for them. Then almost everyone began ranting about snake oils and BS before they even had a chance to find out what I was talking about. Then after clearing the air and getting people to talk civilized rather then making judgements with out facts, we were able to get more information about the paints the one person used that did not work for him, but we still do not know what the original application was. I also provided multiple links to what our product is, what we claim it can do, the applications we use it for, and our testing standards - all upfront and very professional. I am not trying to be sneaky, just offer a suggestion without slamming an entire industry because of a few bad products. |
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