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Homeowner Forum / Construction / October 2005Add Collar Beam?
I have a house in NE Ohio with an addition put on by the previous homeowner. We have lived here 3 years. Last winter, during extremely cold temperatures, we heard some loud noises coming from the roof of the addition. Since the addition is our master bedroom, the crack/bang noise woke me up. It was loud. I figured those noises were something to do with the house settling or something. Recently, I have noticed cracks and in the corners where the upper part of the addition meets the original outside wall. The corner drywall tape is pulling away and there are similar cracks on the other side of the room on the same wall. So, I finally crawled into the attic and did some poking around and took some digital pictures that I have posted here: http://imageevent.com/jimbo99/attic?n=0 You can see that I have a gable roof with rafters tied to a ridge board. However, I suspect I am missing a critical piece of support - collar beams. Can anyone make any suggestions (based on the pictures) if 2x4x10 beams tied about halfway down would stabilize things? I know I should contact an engineer, this is just the first step. Looking for ideas! Thanks > I have a house in NE Ohio with an addition put on by the previous > homeowner. We have lived here 3 years. Last winter, during extremely [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I know I should contact an engineer, this is just the first step. > Looking for ideas! I'm not convinced that the noises are indicative of a structural problem. Houses frequently "burp" when there is a swing in temperature. The cracks are not that unusual in a stick framed house as wood shrinkage and settling is unavoidable. This will of course show up where a new addition is attached to the older "pre-shrunk" house. The ceiling joists should be able to tie the roof together without collar ties. Check to see how the lapped joint at the center of the ceiling is fastened. Check to see how the ceiling joists are attached to the rafters, and check to see if the rafters are tight to the ridge. If those connections are well nailed and tight, you probably don't have a structural problem - at least not one that collar ties would correct. If it makes you feel better, install collar ties on every other rafter pair about a third of the way down from the ridge. Figure four 16d common nails at each end. R Well, I think I'll add the collar ties as an added measure. I am going to use screws, though I wonder if there is some kind of metal fastener that would be better. Anyway, I Iooked at the roof line yesterday and I can a slight dip in the middle of the line, higher on the ends. I suspect that the walls are spreading somewhat causing this. I am wondering if there is a way to further secure the addition to the rest of the house - the cracks that have developed are in that area of the house. Thanks for the reply! J > Well, I think I'll add the collar ties as an added measure. I am going > to use screws, though I wonder if there is some kind of metal fastener [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of the house - the cracks that have developed are in that area of the > house. Nails are stronger than screws in your application. String a line to see if that dip is an optical illusion or not, and if not how much it's dipped. Why do you feel that the addition is not adequately attached to the house? The cracks, as I mentioned, are almost certainly due to shrinkage and settling of the new addition. No amount of fasteners will prevent that. R In a previous post DorkyGrin wrote... > Well, I think I'll add the collar ties as an added measure. I am going > to use screws, though I wonder if there is some kind of metal fastener [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of the house - the cracks that have developed are in that area of the > house. I second all of Rico's recommendations and observations, and will add one of my own. The connection of the cceiling joist to the rafters (or top plates if they are not on the same centers) is critical when the ceiling joist is acting as a collar tie. After reviewing your picture I can see a number of other problems which will not so easily be fixed: 1. Picture 2 seems to show that the rafters are not bearing on the outside wall plat but on some sort of interior wall with a single top plate. 2. The ceiling joists don't appear to be connected to this interior "bearing" wall or the rafters at this location and thus are not acting as direct load path collar ties. For that reason your idea of adding collar ties might be a good one, but they should be as low on the rafter as possible. 3. If the walls are pushed out then you are probably going to want to pull them back into alignment. I suggest doing this over several weeks instead of all at once. Try for no more than 1/8" every few days. 4. If you insist on using screws then at least use Simpson SDS 1/4" lag screws. These have a hex head, so you just put a nut driver on your drill and install as needed.  SignatureBob Morrison, PE, SE R L Morrison Engineering Co Structural & Civil Engineering Poulsbo WA In a previous post Bob Morrison wrote... > I > > suspect that the walls are spreading somewhat causing this. I am > > wondering if there is a way to further secure the addition to the rest > > of the house - the cracks that have developed are in that area of the > > house. A follow-up to my earlier comments: It may be that the spreading you are seeing is due to a weak "heel" connection of the ceiling joist to the rafters or wall plate. This connection can have up to several thousands of pounds tension in the ceiling joist/collar tie. Expecting 2 or 3 16d nails to transfer this load is asking for the impossible. SignatureBob Morrison, PE, SE R L Morrison Engineering Co Structural & Civil Engineering Poulsbo WA Bob, You wrote If the walls are pushed out then you are probably going to want to pull them back into alignment. I suggest doing this over several weeks instead of all at once. Try for no more than 1/8" every few days. Why not do it all at once? Is it concern for drywall damage? tonyg, port townsend,wa. Thanks for all the comments and input. I added some pictures to the link to show what the house looks like on the outside. You'll notice something weird - the rafters are short on the left side due to the tree and the window that was put in. Again, not my design, it was the previous homeowner. The pictures where I focused on the tie between the rafter and the wall plate is from that left side, it was the closest and easiest to get to. I posted some pics of the wall cracks also. I'll have to measure how much the dip is - not much, perhaps an inch. The joists are on the outside wall, there are no load bearing walls inside. That plate in the center with the 3 2x4's from peak to plate is just spanning across the top of the ceiling joists. Again, it is just a bedroom underneath with no walls. All in all, I don't think I have a big problem. Just something I want to nip in the bud. And perhaps prevent some of the loud shifting in the dead of winter. In a previous post tonyg wrote... > Bob, > You wrote [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Why not do it all at once? Is it concern for drywall damage? tonyg, > port townsend,wa. Tony: It's more a matter of allowing the wood and nails to get used to being in a new position as well as concern for drywall cracking. This is particularly a problem if the walls have been out of position for long while. It's not that you can't do it quickly, I just think you might have fewer drywall cracks and fewer connection issues if the work is done a little at a time. SignatureBob Morrison, PE, SE R L Morrison Engineering Co Structural & Civil Engineering Poulsbo WA On 9/30/2005 2:53 PM US(ET), Bob Morrison took fingers to keyboard, and typed the following: >In a previous post tonyg wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >drywall cracks and fewer connection issues if the work is done a little at >a time. It's supposedly 1/4" a week as I recall. I jacked up a girder about 1/2" at one time and it was interesting with all the groaning and crackly noises. SignatureBill > In a previous post DorkyGrin wrote... > > Well, I think I'll add the collar ties as an added measure. I am going [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > 1. Picture 2 seems to show that the rafters are not bearing on the outside > wall plat but on some sort of interior wall with a single top plate. I'd missed that. The rafter bearing on the middle of a 2x4 top plate span is very poor construction. You can build with a single top plate if the rafters are bearing directly above the studs. Since that wall isn't sheathed, it's an even worse condition. At the least I'd glue and nail some 3/4" plywood at the top of that wall - figure 12" deep. That would stiffen up that top plate substantially. R >>In a previous post DorkyGrin wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > R Another option would be to just drop another stud under each rafter. Provided the top plate below is a double that would also solve the problem. Mark > >>In a previous post DorkyGrin wrote... > >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Another option would be to just drop another stud under each rafter. > Provided the top plate below is a double that would also solve the problem. How would you get the additional studs in place? There're restrictions in the form of interior and exterior wall surfaces as well as the roof. R >>>>In a previous post DorkyGrin wrote... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > R For some reason, which has now escaped me, I thought the wall (above the insulation in picture 2) was built on top of the ceiling joists or wall below. This is why I said "provided the top plate below". But yes, of course, if this isnt the case adding studs down through an existing wall would be impossible. Mark On 9/29/2005 10:50 PM US(ET), DorkyGrin took fingers to keyboard, and typed the following: >I have a house in NE Ohio with an addition put on by the previous >homeowner. We have lived here 3 years. Last winter, during extremely [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Thanks http://www.nemmar.com/real-estate-Collar-Ties-Sagging-Roof.html SignatureBill water damaged plywood pict #1? tony >I have a house in NE Ohio with an addition put on by the previous > homeowner. We have lived here 3 years. Last winter, during extremely [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks Guess so, the roof is only 5 years old. Must have happened before the re-roofing. Never noticed any moisture issues anywhere. 1. did you have an inspection when you bought? were there permits for the addition? 2. call an engineer 3. you have other problems too roof leaks electrical wires and boxes not secure who knows what lies below that insulation? lack of nailing @ ridge? all said....good luck > I have a house in NE Ohio with an addition put on by the previous > homeowner. We have lived here 3 years. Last winter, during extremely [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks |
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