What is it with this granite counter top fad? Is it a sign of total decadence and the decline and fall of America?
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perfb@yahoo.com - 18 Sep 2005 16:58 GMT everywhere I go, all the Martha Stewart clones are gabbing about their new granite counter tops, or their soon-to-be installed granite counter tops. WUWT? How does such an inane fad get started? What companies should I have invested in 12 months ago who are now obscenely profiting off the Martha Stewart clones' lust for granite and their idiot wage slaves' sighing as they sign the checks? What phase of decadence are we now in relative to the decline and fall of the Roman empire?
rosie - 18 Sep 2005 18:52 GMT > everywhere I go, all the Martha Stewart clones are gabbing about their > new granite counter tops, or their soon-to-be installed granite counter [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > slaves' sighing as they sign the checks? What phase of decadence are > we now in relative to the decline and fall of the Roman empire? Everywhere you go, you complain.. Get a life... Rosie
DCI - 18 Sep 2005 18:56 GMT >> everywhere I go, all the Martha Stewart clones are gabbing about their >> new granite counter tops, or their soon-to-be installed granite counter [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Everywhere you go, you complain.. Get a life... >Rosie I don't know "what's up with this granite counter top fad." We had ours imported from Brazil. The granite is black with speckles of dark green. Looks good, too.
DCI
MoM - 18 Sep 2005 23:09 GMT >>> everywhere I go, all the Martha Stewart clones are gabbing about their >>> new granite counter tops, or their soon-to-be installed granite counter [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > DCI And it will outlast any formica top.
MoM
Sheldon - 19 Sep 2005 14:31 GMT > > I don't know "what's up with this granite counter top fad." We had > > ours imported from Brazil. The granite is black with speckles of dark > > green. Looks good, too. > > > And it will outlast any formica top. That's not necessarily so... and why would you want it to last a lifetime, wouldn't that be boring? My parents had the same faux marble puke-green formica counters for some 50 years... their next door neighbor (the one upsmanship snob from hell) put in granite (had to brag at every opportunity, to everyone within six blocks), who within a month dropped a mixing bowl she was taking from an upper cabinet and it dropped onto the granite which cracked clear across. When she asked the installer for a replacement was reminded how her warranty specifically indicated that breakage due to impact is not covered. Do not drop anything on granite counters. Granite may be hard but it is also brittle, and since it's a natural product will contain fissures where cracks can occur from impact. I suppose one can purchase insurance to cover their granite counters, but that's like paying for them twice. And just try to replace a section to match, it's rare that the same lot of stone is available.
And there is nothing new about granite counters. Before there was plastic laminate most all countertops (homes and business) were made of granite or marble and invaribly they cracked and that's what made plasic laminate so popular, an overnight sucess. Only problem was that there were very few color/pattern options in the beginning. But now there are zillions of gorgeous choices and new installation techniques so that seams are nearly invisible, can be made to look just like real stone where one would need to look carefully to realize it's plastic laminate, and today's material holds up much better to wear and even to heat.
I can easily afford granite but prefer plastic laminate, I like that it's priced so that I can change the entire look of my kitchen every few years for very little money and aggrivation, the new countertops can be ordered, fabricated in a factory, and delivered in less than two weeks, can opt for professional installation or if handy can easily do it yourself, all in less than a day.
As a child I grew up with granite and marble countertops, even the kitchen sink was marble, so to me there is nothing modern looking about stone counters, in fact reminds me of a graveyard. I've been thinking of redoing my daffodil yellow plastic laminate counters but there are so many choices it's difficult to decide... I'm thinking candy apple red.
Sheldon
Shaun aRe - 23 Sep 2005 11:08 GMT "Sheldon"
> As a child I grew up... You LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shaun aRe
CWatters - 20 Sep 2005 22:33 GMT > And it will outlast any formica top. > > MoM Try leaving half a lemon flat side down on it overnight. On second thoughts don't.
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 18 Sep 2005 20:34 GMT > everywhere I go, all the Martha Stewart clones are gabbing about their > new granite counter tops, or their soon-to-be installed granite counter > tops. WUWT? How does such an inane fad get started? What companies > should I have invested in 12 months ago who are now obscenely profiting > off the Martha Stewart clones' lust for granite and their idiot wage > slaves' Now that the wage slave bosses piss test them, maybe this is the only way they can get stoned.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
Tony P. - 18 Sep 2005 21:42 GMT > everywhere I go, all the Martha Stewart clones are gabbing about their > new granite counter tops, or their soon-to-be installed granite counter [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > slaves' sighing as they sign the checks? What phase of decadence are > we now in relative to the decline and fall of the Roman empire? The U.S. is headed to hell in a hand basket because of rampant consumerism. For example, I get along just fine with a $10 cutting board and Formica. I don't need granite, marble or corian for that matter.
We're in the Bread and Circuses phase now.
Bert Hyman - 18 Sep 2005 21:55 GMT In news:MPG.1d979b59186730ee98a1fb@news.west.cox.net Tony P. <kd1s@nospamplease.cox.reallynospam.net> wrote:
> The U.S. is headed to hell in a hand basket because of rampant > consumerism. Really? And here I thought it was due to clowns posting about counter tops in political newsgroups.
Followups set.
 Signature Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 18 Sep 2005 22:45 GMT > > everywhere I go, all the Martha Stewart clones are gabbing about their > > new granite counter tops, or their soon-to-be installed granite counter [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > We're in the Bread and Circuses phase now. What is wrong with consumerism?
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
Asmodeus - 18 Sep 2005 23:00 GMT > What is wrong with consumerism? Everything, if you're a slobbering Marxist, on the dole, have no job and no disposable income.
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Peter Aitken - 19 Sep 2005 00:08 GMT >> What is wrong with consumerism? > > Everything, if you're a slobbering Marxist, on the dole, have > no job and no disposable income. Everything, if you are a mindless right-wing ditto-head with no skills or brains, working at a tedious mindless job to pay for your big TV, NASCAR tickets, and pickup truck.
 Signature Peter Aitken
Asmodeus - 19 Sep 2005 20:25 GMT > Everything, if you are a mindless right-wing ditto-head with no > skills or brains, Except we're the ones with the job skills and brains not to be on the dole--unlike you.
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Tony P. - 19 Sep 2005 03:39 GMT > > What is wrong with consumerism? > > Everything, if you're a slobbering Marxist, on the dole, have > no job and no disposable income. I'm not a Marxits, nor am I on the dole. I have a job, one that pays less that what I'm worth because I.T. jobs are being exported to Bangalore and the like.
Sure I have disposable income. But much of that gets banked against the inevitable downturns that happen every ten years or so.
Asmodeus - 19 Sep 2005 20:26 GMT > I'm not a Marxits, nor am I on the dole. I have a job, one that pays > less that what I'm worth because I.T. jobs are being exported to > Bangalore and the like. Whine, whine, whine. If you can't compete or get the salary you want, get different job skills.
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Tony P. - 19 Sep 2005 22:24 GMT > > I'm not a Marxits, nor am I on the dole. I have a job, one that pays > > less that what I'm worth because I.T. jobs are being exported to > > Bangalore and the like. > > Whine, whine, whine. If you can't compete or get the salary > you want, get different job skills. Sure, blow another $40K or so re-educating myself. That's you solution?
Asmodeus - 19 Sep 2005 22:37 GMT > Sure, blow another $40K or so re-educating myself. It's your choice. Either get new job skills so you can compete in a higher salary market, or stop your whining and take the salary you get. Either way, you take responsibility for your own life, instead of blaming somebody else.
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Tony P. - 20 Sep 2005 03:21 GMT > > Sure, blow another $40K or so re-educating myself. > > It's your choice. Either get new job skills so you can compete > in a higher salary market, or stop your whining and take the > salary you get. Either way, you take responsibility for your > own life, instead of blaming somebody else. Pardon me but wasn't the belief in the U.S. once stated as follows:
Get yourself a good education and you'll have a job for life.
Now it's get and pay for an expensive education and maybe you'll have a job for ten years. After that you're on your f.cking own.
I just love the smug attitude of those who've gotten there. I'll bet you're some codger who is close to retirement age.
Dee Randall - 20 Sep 2005 03:33 GMT >> > Sure, blow another $40K or so re-educating myself. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I just love the smug attitude of those who've gotten there. I'll bet > you're some codger who is close to retirement age. A dear cousin, a lumberman in Washington country, lost his job a few years ago. He's getting his education in mathematics.He's raising a daughter on his own. Yes, he's on his own, and I don't think he's worried about getting a job for life. He did something when others quit. He has a good attitude! Dee Dee
JerryD(upstateNY) - 20 Sep 2005 08:04 GMT >>>>>Pardon me but wasn't the belief in the U.S. once stated as follows: Get yourself a good education and you'll have a job for life.<<<<<<
So if you spend 6 years in college majoring in "poetry of the Roman empire", you should have a job for life ?
 Signature JerryD(upstateNY)
Asmodeus - 20 Sep 2005 14:56 GMT > Get yourself a good education and you'll have a job for life. Not in a long time. Deal with reality.
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Steven - 21 Sep 2005 02:12 GMT >Pardon me but wasn't the belief in the U.S. once stated as follows: > Get yourself a good education and you'll have a job for life. A job for life? Wake up. There is no such thing. Why does everyone now think that we are all "owed" something? Do you assume that you have some inalienable right to a good job because you have an education? Unless you have a professional degree, all an education gives you the ability to get your foot in the door and shows that, AT THE LEAST, you can stick to a goal. Don't be a slacker. If the mice figure out your trap, build a better one. If you are not happy with your IT job, quit complaining about "the man" and start your own company. Find a niche that is either not being done or is not being done very well. Work 70 hrs a week, save all your profit, and build your own future. Once you do this, you'll have a better understanding why the jobs are exported to Bangalore. Hard work and entrepreneurship, my boy, is what the U.S. was founded on.
S.
chris.holt - 18 Sep 2005 23:18 GMT Bill Bonde wrote:
>>The U.S. is headed to hell in a hand basket because of rampant >>consumerism. For example, I get along just fine with a $10 cutting board >>and Formica. I don't need granite, marble or corian for that matter. >> >>We're in the Bread and Circuses phase now.
> What is wrong with consumerism? Fads can often lead to a misallocation of resources. This applies at the micro as well as the macro level. When I first saw pre-grated cheddar cheese, I was startled. Now I see pre-sliced lettuce, carrots etc. And usually it's lower income people I see buying it, the ones for whom five minutes in the kitchen cannot possibly be worth the markup.
They do it because of consumerism, understood as spending millions of pounds/dollars on advertising to convince people to spend money on things they don't really want and certainly don't need. This is scarcely a new idea (try reading Murder Must Advertise, a 1930s mystery by Dorothy Sayers); but it's been fine-tuned since then.
Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. Symptoms include levels of eating disorders, obesity, self-harm and depression.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Curly Sue - 18 Sep 2005 23:23 GMT >Bill Bonde wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >five minutes in the kitchen cannot possibly be worth the >markup. <snip>
>Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that >they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. >Symptoms include levels of eating disorders, obesity, >self-harm and depression. OMG! I'm throwing out my baby carrots right now before I hurt myself!!! Orange bullets of the devil...
Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
chris.holt - 18 Sep 2005 23:48 GMT >>Fads can often lead to a misallocation of resources. This >>applies at the micro as well as the macro level. When I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>five minutes in the kitchen cannot possibly be worth the >>markup. ...
>>Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that >>they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. >>Symptoms include levels of eating disorders, obesity, >>self-harm and depression.
> OMG! I'm throwing out my baby carrots right now before I hurt > myself!!! Orange bullets of the devil... Only if they're pre-sliced. :-)
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Malibu Skipper - 18 Sep 2005 23:35 GMT > Bill Bonde wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Symptoms include levels of eating disorders, obesity, > self-harm and depression. Unfortunately, this is entirely necessary -- since if large numbers of people didn't go deeply into debt to buy things they don't need or even really want, the ponzi scheme that is our economy would collapse like a Tulip Bubble.
Asmodeus - 18 Sep 2005 23:51 GMT Malibu Skipper <mad@my.mama> wrote in news:WYlXe.63359$SL.949494 @twister.southeast.rr.com:
> Unfortunately, this is entirely necessary Another one crawls out from under its rock to howl at the moon.
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Malibu Skipper - 19 Sep 2005 01:02 GMT > Malibu Skipper <mad@my.mama> wrote in news:WYlXe.63359$SL.949494 > @twister.southeast.rr.com: > >>Unfortunately, this is entirely necessary > > Another one crawls out from under its rock to howl at the moon. Ooh! Guess you told me.
Asmodeus - 19 Sep 2005 20:29 GMT Malibu Skipper <mad@my.mama> wrote in news:LenXe.63605$SL.955819 @twister.southeast.rr.com:
> Ooh! Guess you told me. So those must be pretty good drugs you're on, bozo.
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chris.holt - 18 Sep 2005 23:52 GMT >> Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that >> they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. >> Symptoms include levels of eating disorders, obesity, >> self-harm and depression.
> Unfortunately, this is entirely necessary -- since if large numbers of > people didn't go deeply into debt to buy things they don't need or even > really want, the ponzi scheme that is our economy would collapse like a > Tulip Bubble. Sadly, it's going to happen anyway. But it's politically unacceptable to have a slightly lower rate of growth just for the sake of sustainability. When you're judged by quarterly results, you can't afford to think about the medium term.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 19 Sep 2005 00:18 GMT > >> Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that > >> they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > unacceptable to have a slightly lower rate of growth just > for the sake of sustainability. You'll notice the cries from the Liberals around here whenever Greenspan tries to raise interest rates even a little bit.
> When you're judged by > quarterly results, you can't afford to think about the > medium term. I think we had reasonable growth in the last expansion. I don't think there's ever been a time when some people didn't complain.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 00:33 GMT Bill Bonde wrote:
>>>Unfortunately, this is entirely necessary -- since if large numbers of >>>people didn't go deeply into debt to buy things they don't need or even >>>really want, the ponzi scheme that is our economy would collapse like a >>>Tulip Bubble.
>>Sadly, it's going to happen anyway. But it's politically >>unacceptable to have a slightly lower rate of growth just >>for the sake of sustainability.
> You'll notice the cries from the Liberals around here whenever Greenspan > tries to raise interest rates even a little bit. I haven't noticed any particular political bias with respect to complaints or the lack thereof. I understand the reasons for wanting a soft landing; the question is how best to manage it, if it's possible at all. No, the main complaints I've seen have been to do with fiscal policy.
>> When you're judged by >>quarterly results, you can't afford to think about the >>medium term.
> I think we had reasonable growth in the last expansion. I don't think > there's ever been a time when some people didn't complain. Of course some people are always going to complain. What *I'm* complaining about is a business/government environment that almost inevitably leads to unsustainable policy decisions.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 19 Sep 2005 00:49 GMT > Bill Bonde wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I haven't noticed any particular political bias with > respect to complaints or the lack thereof. Against Greenspan? Every time Greenspan tries to raise interest rates a quarter point, people here complain that he's a Nazi or something.
> I understand > the reasons for wanting a soft landing; the question is > how best to manage it, if it's possible at all. No, > the main complaints I've seen have been to do with > fiscal policy. We don't have a fiscal policy and Greenspan only has monetary policy to work with. I've suggested that government provide legislation that would allow Greenspan to modulate fiscal policy too.
> >> When you're judged by > >>quarterly results, you can't afford to think about the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that almost inevitably leads to unsustainable policy > decisions. With no government oversight, the booms and busts were more frequent and more painful so something positive has been going on, I think.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
Curly Sue - 19 Sep 2005 00:19 GMT >>> Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that >>> they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >quarterly results, you can't afford to think about the >medium term. It's human nature, not just U.S. I was at an informal luncheon discussion of something-or-other (sustainable economy?) where a Chinese lady mentioned a remote Chinese town that produces a very nice product (cotton fabric? whatever...). She said that the locals were disturbed because the cost of transporting the product even to the nearest Chinese city wiped out any profits they would make so they weren't very competitive in the global economy. I asked why they care, inasmuch as they were a viable self-contained economy. She said "They want to buy Ipods."
Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 19 Sep 2005 00:51 GMT > >>> Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that > >>> they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > care, inasmuch as they were a viable self-contained economy. She said > "They want to buy Ipods." What's wrong with that? People in subsistence living should have the right to make money to buy some things outside the subsistence environment.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
Curly Sue - 19 Sep 2005 02:16 GMT >> >>> Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that >> >>> they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >right to make money to buy some things outside the subsistence >environment. Where did anyone say there was something wrong with that? The example was to illustrate my point that acquiring things is human nature, not just American materialism. Also, I didn't say that the Chinese town was subsistance level, unless lack of Ipods indicates subsistence level!
Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 19 Sep 2005 03:46 GMT > >> >>> Consumerism now means twisting people's minds so that > >> >>> they become slightly insane so that they'll spend more. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > was subsistance level, unless lack of Ipods indicates subsistence > level! You claimed they were self sufficient which is subsistence living by definition.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
Ernst Blofeld - 20 Sep 2005 06:55 GMT > >> What is wrong with consumerism? > Unfortunately, this is entirely necessary -- since if large numbers of > people didn't go deeply into debt to buy things they don't need or even > really want, the ponzi scheme that is our economy would collapse like a > Tulip Bubble. Meh. You could get along just fine with the level of consumer goods circa 1920. But most people want more.
What would be your optimum quantity of consumer goods for a median family? For the sake of argument tie this to some year, like 1950, 1970, etc.
Malibu Skipper - 20 Sep 2005 21:15 GMT >>>>What is wrong with consumerism? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > median family? For the sake of argument tie this to some year, > like 1950, 1970, etc. 1426?
Ernst Blofeld - 20 Sep 2005 22:01 GMT > > Meh. You could get along just fine with the level of consumer goods > > circa 1920. But most people want more. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > 1426? An Earth-Firster, eh?
The technology changes make it difficult--you would presumably be in favor of antibiotics--but I think people are mostly happier in part because they've got more material goods. They live in a detached 1500 sq ft house with a yard rather than a fifth-floor walkup with 800 sq ft. They can pick from the entire library of films since 1900 for cheap. They've got washing machines and refrigerators. They don't have to live like 1948 Britain.
Who knows, maybe they like their granite countertops. Both my brother's houses have 'em. They look pretty sharp.
Malibu Skipper - 20 Sep 2005 22:12 GMT >>>Meh. You could get along just fine with the level of consumer goods >>>circa 1920. But most people want more. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > An Earth-Firster, eh? No, just a smart a.s.
> The technology changes make it difficult--you would presumably be in > favor of antibiotics--but I think people are mostly happier in part [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Who knows, maybe they like their granite countertops. Both my > brother's houses have 'em. They look pretty sharp. I have no particular objection to consumer goods per se -- I like being able to watch The Seven Samurai whenever I want to, and if I redid my kitchen I might very well put in granite countertops, since they provide a great cutting surface and are easy to clean, and I cook a lot. My point was more general -- the cost of this unprecedented availability of consumer goods is an economy which requires constant growth, and the only way to achieve that growth is through equally unprecedented levels of debt. It's a genteel ponzi scheme, and someday it's going to crash about our collective ears.
Asmodeus - 18 Sep 2005 23:50 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgkp2t$gha$1 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> Fads can often lead to a misallocation of resources How people allocate their resources is none of your, or anyone else's, business.
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chris.holt - 18 Sep 2005 23:54 GMT >>Fads can often lead to a misallocation of resources
> How people allocate their resources is none of your, or anyone > else's, business. That would be true if we were all islands.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 19 Sep 2005 00:21 GMT > >>Fads can often lead to a misallocation of resources > > > How people allocate their resources is none of your, or anyone > > else's, business. > > That would be true if we were all islands. It sounds like you are questioning the very basis for market economics.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 00:36 GMT Bill Bonde wrote:
>>>>Fads can often lead to a misallocation of resources
>>>How people allocate their resources is none of your, or anyone >>>else's, business.
>>That would be true if we were all islands.
> It sounds like you are questioning the very basis for market economics. If you agree that no man is an island, then you accept the existence of externalities. When these are negligible, Econ 101 market economics can work very well. When they are not, then we do have to care about how other people allocate their resources, because it can have a hell of an impact on our own lives.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 19 Sep 2005 00:52 GMT > Bill Bonde wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > allocate their resources, because it can have a hell of > an impact on our own lives. Except that when people as individuals allocate resources, they are allocated better than when they are allocated by any other known means.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 01:00 GMT Bill Bonde wrote:
>>Bill Bonde wrote:
>>>It sounds like you are questioning the very basis for market economics.
>>If you agree that no man is an island, then you accept the >>existence of externalities. When these are negligible, >>Econ 101 market economics can work very well. When they >>are not, then we do have to care about how other people >>allocate their resources, because it can have a hell of >>an impact on our own lives.
> Except that when people as individuals allocate resources, they are > allocated better than when they are allocated by any other known means. That's the Econ 101 theory. Tell me, do you still disbelieve in ozone holes? Do you see the relevance?
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 19 Sep 2005 01:12 GMT > Bill Bonde wrote: > >>Bill Bonde wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > That's the Econ 101 theory. Tell me, do you still > disbelieve in ozone holes? When did I disbelieve in ozone holes?
> Do you see the relevance? I suppose the misapplication of resources to CFCs instead of more innocuous aerosol propellants has caused it.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 01:22 GMT Bill Bonde wrote:
>>Bill Bonde wrote:
>>>Except that when people as individuals allocate resources, they are >>>allocated better than when they are allocated by any other known means.
>>That's the Econ 101 theory. Tell me, do you still >>disbelieve in ozone holes?
> When did I disbelieve in ozone holes? Perhaps I had you confused with someone else.
>>Do you see the relevance?
> I suppose the misapplication of resources to CFCs instead of more > innocuous aerosol propellants has caused it. And that misapplication arose because of people allocating resources as individuals. In the absence of multi-lateral government action, people would *still* be using CFCs, and people like me who live in the north would be getting frizzled every March (more than we are; the thinning still happens). But people in the tropics wouldn't care.
That's why I talk about externalities, and allocations of resources affecting third parties. You cannot always depend on invisible hands to magically solve problems for you.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
3D Peruna - 26 Sep 2005 02:45 GMT > Bill Bonde wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > depend on invisible hands to magically solve problems for > you. CFCs were never as bad as they were made out to be. In fact, the replacement aerosols are often locally worse than CFCs. What happened with CFCs was a fantastic convergance of junk science, earth and solar cycles and the end of patents on many CFCs.
The "invisible hand" eventually solves the problems...you just don't like the time scale.
chris.holt - 26 Sep 2005 11:24 GMT >> That's why I talk about externalities, and allocations of >> resources affecting third parties. You cannot always >> depend on invisible hands to magically solve problems for >> you.
> CFCs were never as bad as they were made out to be. In fact, the > replacement aerosols are often locally worse than CFCs. What happened > with CFCs was a fantastic convergance of junk science, earth and solar > cycles and the end of patents on many CFCs. That's a theory. In the meantime, we still get ozone thinning.
> The "invisible hand" eventually solves the problems...you just don't > like the time scale. In the long run, we're all dead.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Asmodeus - 19 Sep 2005 20:27 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgktms$iag$1 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> then we do have to care about how other people > allocate their resources Sick your nose into other peoples' business and steal from them, you mean, you lying leftist.
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chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 23:07 GMT >>then we do have to care about how other people >>allocate their resources
> Sick your nose into other peoples' business and steal > from them, you mean, you lying leftist. If other people's business is going to get me killed, don't you think I have a right to be concerned?
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Asmodeus - 19 Sep 2005 23:11 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgncrq$jls$2 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> If other people's business is going to get me killed, > don't you think I have a right to be concerned? I think you'd best mind your own business and keep your filthy tax-raising hands out of everybody else's bank accounts. You'd best stop drinking that leftist Nader kool-aid, too.
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chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 23:30 GMT >>If other people's business is going to get me killed, >>don't you think I have a right to be concerned?
> I think you'd best mind your own business and keep your filthy > tax-raising hands out of everybody else's bank accounts. You'd > best stop drinking that leftist Nader kool-aid, too. So you're one of the people who don't believe in ozone holes, then. Okay; just so I know.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Asmodeus - 20 Sep 2005 01:07 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgne6d$k6h$2 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> So you're one of the people who don't believe in ozone holes Sure I do. I have three pet ozone holes. Now keep your filthy paws out of other peoples' bank accounts.
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chris.holt - 20 Sep 2005 01:23 GMT >>So you're one of the people who don't believe in ozone holes
> Sure I do. I have three pet ozone holes. Now keep your filthy > paws out of other peoples' bank accounts. Too late; CFCs don't cost what they used to.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Ernst Blofeld - 19 Sep 2005 23:24 GMT > If other people's business is going to get me killed, > don't you think I have a right to be concerned? Granite counters and pre-grated cheese are getting you killed?
chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 23:34 GMT >>If other people's business is going to get me killed, >>don't you think I have a right to be concerned?
> Granite counters and pre-grated cheese are getting you killed? If you think that other people's allocations of resources are limited only to those things, perhaps not.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') - 19 Sep 2005 23:47 GMT > >>If other people's business is going to get me killed, > >>don't you think I have a right to be concerned? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you think that other people's allocations of resources > are limited only to those things, perhaps not. OK, most of us think that if they are allocating resources to build nuclear weapons in their pants, that should be restricted, but if they want granite countertops or whatever, that sixth DVD player?, that's within their rights.
 Signature So they are even more frightened than we are, he thought. Why, is this all that's meant by heroism? And did I do it for the sake of my country? And was he to blame with his dimple and his blue eyes? How frightened he was! He thought I was going to kill him. Why should I kill him? My hand trembled. And they have given me the St. George's Cross. I can't make it out, I can't make it out! +-Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
chris.holt - 20 Sep 2005 00:53 GMT Bill Bonde wrote:
>>>>If other people's business is going to get me killed, >>>>don't you think I have a right to be concerned?
>>>Granite counters and pre-grated cheese are getting you killed?
>>If you think that other people's allocations of resources >>are limited only to those things, perhaps not.
> OK, most of us think that if they are allocating resources to build > nuclear weapons in their pants, that should be restricted, but if they > want granite countertops or whatever, that sixth DVD player?, that's > within their rights. So you agree that upon occasion, I have an interest in how other people allocate resources, even to the point of interfering. If you remember, that's the only thing I was trying to establish here, so we agree.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
3D Peruna - 26 Sep 2005 02:52 GMT >>> If other people's business is going to get me killed, >>> don't you think I have a right to be concerned? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you think that other people's allocations of resources > are limited only to those things, perhaps not. So...who, exactly, would allocate these resources? "Experts"? "Democratic" elections? You? The "government"? Me? Either the resources are allocated by individuals or they're allocated by dictators (called by many different names). Liberty or "security"?
It is my personal obligation to allocate resources wisely. But, it is not your, nor anybody elses, responsiblity to tell me how nor require me to allocate them wisely. If individuals does not have the agency to choose the better course, then they are slaves. Liberty or "security"?
chris.holt - 26 Sep 2005 11:35 GMT >>>> If other people's business is going to get me killed, >>>> don't you think I have a right to be concerned?
>>> Granite counters and pre-grated cheese are getting you killed?
>> If you think that other people's allocations of resources >> are limited only to those things, perhaps not.
> So...who, exactly, would allocate these resources? "Experts"? > "Democratic" elections? You? The "government"? Me? Either the > resources are allocated by individuals or they're allocated by dictators > (called by many different names). Liberty or "security"? I would hope it would depend on the people who are seriously affected by the allocations. Had Saddam Hussein been manufacturing nuclear weapons and funding terrorists, I would have an interest in affecting that allocation. Since he wasn't, I don't.
> It is my personal obligation to allocate resources wisely. But, it is > not your, nor anybody elses, responsiblity to tell me how nor require me > to allocate them wisely. If individuals does not have the agency to > choose the better course, then they are slaves. Liberty or "security"? It's not as either/or as that.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
OmManiPadmeOmelet - 26 Sep 2005 13:15 GMT What's with this damn thread that the title keeps morphing???
I've killfiled this stupid thread about a dozen times already! :-P Quit morphing the frickin' subject line!
Please!!!!!!
 Signature Om.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson
3D Peruna - 26 Sep 2005 14:07 GMT
>>>>> If other people's business is going to get me killed, >>>>> don't you think I have a right to be concerned? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > It's not as either/or as that. It isn't? How so? YOU think that Saddam's weapons/terrorist fetish is a problem. Saddam clearly thinks it's a great idea. Who's correct? From each of your perspectives, you're both absolutely morally correct. And, since Saddam has the weapons/terrorists, it's likely he'd win out in a discussion, isn't it? Oh, wait...somebody else dediced that Saddam's weapons/terrorist fetish is a problem and acted up on their morality (and the whole world is now up in arms about it...go figure...). Who gets to decide? You've dodged the question at least twice now... Who's going to be the allocator of resources?
Let me ask you...are you more free if you're shackled to a chain that's 10 miles long over one that's 10 feet long?
chris.holt - 26 Sep 2005 16:05 GMT > "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote...
>>>It is my personal obligation to allocate resources wisely. But, it is >>>not your, nor anybody elses, responsiblity to tell me how nor require me >>>to allocate them wisely. If individuals does not have the agency to >>>choose the better course, then they are slaves. Liberty or "security"?
>>It's not as either/or as that.
> It isn't? How so? YOU think that Saddam's weapons/terrorist fetish is a > problem. Well, in real life I didn't. But we'll go with the hypothetical for now.
> Saddam clearly thinks it's a great idea. Who's correct? From > each of your perspectives, you're both absolutely morally correct. And, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > decide? You've dodged the question at least twice now... Who's going to be > the allocator of resources? I've answered it, but you didn't notice. The people who I think should get to decide are those who are seriously affected by the decision. If you want to buy a toothbrush, it wouldn't affect anyone very much; it's your decision. If you decide to spend all your money on whiskey and beer, leaving your wife and child starving, then they should get a say. With the Saddam example, if he were a bloodthirsty tyrant, then the people at danger should have an influence. IMHO.
How much of an influence depends on lots of things; but we always have to trade off competing interests, so that's scarcely strange or startling.
> Let me ask you...are you more free if you're shackled to a chain that's 10 > miles long over one that's 10 feet long? Yes. We're always constrained by our environments, circumstances and the people around us. Some people in New Orleans were constrained to the point that they couldn't get out of the place and died. It's a fantasy to imagine that the chain doesn't exist at all; what we have to negotiate is how and where it binds us, so that most of the time we can go where we want.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
3D Peruna - 26 Sep 2005 16:35 GMT
>> "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote...
>> Saddam clearly thinks it's a great idea. Who's correct? From each of >> your perspectives, you're both absolutely morally correct. And, since [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Saddam example, if he were a bloodthirsty tyrant, then the > people at danger should have an influence. IMHO. And this system would work how? Little digital "voting" boxes that are used for every decision? Who'd enforce it? For instance, if I were to spend all the money on whiskey and beer, leaving my wife & children starving, how would they get the say? The money has been spent (and if that's the case, likely that I'm going to be earning much in the future). It appears your answer to the problem is an external entity that "resolves" the apparent conflicts. This means some system in place...a system that can be bribed, gamed, manipulated, perverted or generally made untenable.
The correct answer is for each individual to behave "morally." And that, is a religious discussion...
chris.holt - 26 Sep 2005 22:35 GMT > "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote...
>> The people who I >>think should get to decide are those who are seriously affected [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>Saddam example, if he were a bloodthirsty tyrant, then the >>people at danger should have an influence. IMHO.
> And this system would work how? Little digital "voting" boxes that are used > for every decision? Who'd enforce it? Why do you think there should be a single system that should be enforced everywhere? What we have is a complicated interactive system in which some rights are taken into account more than others, and people try to find an appropriate balance.
All I'm saying is that when the interests of some people get left out of the equation and they are seriously affected, then they should be included in ways that they currently are not.
> For instance, if I were to spend all > the money on whiskey and beer, leaving my wife & children starving, how > would they get the say? A hundred and fifty years ago, they didn't. Now they have more of a chance. If you choose to leave home taking all your earnings with you, society compensates them for that loss, to a certain extent.
> The money has been spent (and if that's the case, > likely that I'm going to be earning much in the future). It appears your > answer to the problem is an external entity that "resolves" the apparent > conflicts. This means some system in place...a system that can be bribed, > gamed, manipulated, perverted or generally made untenable. That can always happen with such systems. Is it better to have no system at all, so the woman and children starve to death? Or maybe the woman should become a prostitute?
> The correct answer is for each individual to behave "morally." And that, is > a religious discussion... Since it's not going to happen, we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would like it to be.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
3D Peruna - 26 Sep 2005 23:38 GMT
>> "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Since it's not going to happen, we have to deal with the > world as it is, not as we would like it to be. Tell you what...you go and tell people how they should live...what the system should be...see how far it gets you.
Human society only works when INDIVIDUALS choose to play be fair and moral rules. It matters not what the "system" is.
If you would like the world to be a certain way...then YOU live that way and your world will be as you wish.
(and no...I'm not an anarcho-capitalist, either)
Bob Myers - 19 Sep 2005 02:36 GMT > >>Fads can often lead to a misallocation of resources > > > How people allocate their resources is none of your, or anyone > > else's, business. > > That would be true if we were all islands. OK, let's assume it's NOT true. What mechanism do you propose be used to determine the "proper" allocation of resources?
Bob M.
chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 17:36 GMT > "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote...
>>>How people allocate their resources is none of your, or anyone >>>else's, business.
>>That would be true if we were all islands.
> OK, let's assume it's NOT true. Better, let's assume that it's true in some cases but not in others.
> What mechanism do > you propose be used to determine the "proper" allocation > of resources? In the ozone hole example I offered to Bill, CFCs were withdrawn from production by multilateral agreement. For something like buildings with asbestos, health and safety regulations seem to work. And so on. I don't believe in one-size-fits-all mechanisms.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Asmodeus - 19 Sep 2005 20:26 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgkr71$h8p$2 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> That would be true if we were all islands It's true because it's THEIR money, not yours, you blithering mindless idiot.
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chris.holt - 19 Sep 2005 23:10 GMT >>That would be true if we were all islands
> It's true because it's THEIR money, not yours, you blithering > mindless idiot. But it's only *money* because no man is an island.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Asmodeus - 20 Sep 2005 01:06 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgnd0b$jls$3 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> But it's only *money* because no man is an island http://rightwingnation.com/index.php/2005/09/04/225/
Private Property 101 for Liberals by rightwingprof @ 6:48 am. Edit This Filed under Those Silly Liberals!, Conservatism Trackback URL: http://rightwingnation.com/index.php/2005/09/04/225/trackback/
I don’t know if we’re infested with sociopaths, or people whose parents never taught them basic civilized behavior, or both. Being an optimist, I’ll assume you liberals were just cheated out of the basics at home and in kidergarten, so we’ll cover them now.
Bob works for a living and what Bob owns is his. That includes his paychecks. Now John may not own as much as Bob, but that’s irrelevant. Bob’s stuff is Bob’s stuff. If John takes it, he is a thief, period, that’s it.
John may be as black as the ace of spades and Bob may be so white he’s pink, but that’s irrelevant. What Bob owns, Bob owns. If John takes it, he is a thief, period, that’s it.
John can go on all he wants about being “oppressed” or “marginalized” or “disenfranchised,” and he can go on all he wants about “racism,” but if John takes what Bob owns, John is a thief, period, that’s it.
Of course, John can vote for a thief, who will then go to Congress, and with the other thieves, vote to take part of Bob’s property and give it to John. But theft is theft, and that is what it is, period, that’s it.
It doesn’t make a damn bit of difference why Bob has more things than John, or how many more things Bob has. Not. One. Goddamn. Bit. Of. Difference. If John takes Bob’s property, either himself or through taxes, John is a thief, period, that’s it.
Unfortunately, children are now being taught in school that Bob’s property belongs to everybody but Bob. Children come in on the first day, put the books and notebooks and pencils and pens in a big box so the teacher can pass everything out and everybody will have the same things.
That’s theft, period, that’s it. Theft.
After the Kelo decision, liberals objected, but for entirely the wrong reasons. Liberals howled because the city stole private property to give to a developer. Who is getting the property is irrelevant. Theft is theft, no matter if the city gives the property to a business or turns it into some bullshit walking trail or wildlife preserve.
I’ll wrap up with this updated fable.
OLD VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
MODERN VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, “It’s Not Easy Being Green.”
Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant’s house where the news stations film the group singing, “We shall overcome.” Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper’s sake. Howard Dean & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Peter Jennings that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his “fair share.” Finally, the EEOC drafts the “Economic Equity and Anti- Grasshopper Act,” retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients. The ant loses the case.
The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant’s food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant’s old house, crumbles around him because he doesn’t maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.
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chris.holt - 20 Sep 2005 01:26 GMT >>But it's only *money* because no man is an island
> http://rightwingnation.com/index.php/2005/09/04/225/ > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I’ll assume you liberals were just cheated out of the basics at home > and in kidergarten, so we’ll cover them now. Trivial stuff. I learned better than that in high school more than 30 years ago.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Asmodeus - 20 Sep 2005 14:55 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgnkv0$n1q$3 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> I learned better than that in high school > more than 30 years ago You learned to be a f.cking sociopath.
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chris.holt - 20 Sep 2005 16:23 GMT >>I learned better than that in high school >>more than 30 years ago
> You learned to be a f.cking sociopath. If you want to say that about people who understand basic economics, I won't always disagree with you. It's the ones who learn where the ABC doesn't always work who get beyond sociopathy.
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Asmodeus - 20 Sep 2005 17:36 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgp9h9$dib$1 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> If you want to say that about people who understand > basic economics You idiot. Basic economics don't work that way, except in your fevered Marxist fantasies.
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chris.holt - 20 Sep 2005 19:45 GMT >>If you want to say that about people who understand >>basic economics
> You idiot. Basic economics don't work that way, except in your > fevered Marxist fantasies. I think that you might want to enquire both what I understand about basic economics and what my fevered fantasies are before (rather than after) calling me an idiot. Not that I might tell you about the latter. :-)
I don't see where Marxism comes into the current discussion; that might have more to do with your fantasies than mine.
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Asmodeus - 20 Sep 2005 19:53 GMT "chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote in news:dgplcf$ij1$1 @ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk:
> I don't see where Marxism comes into the current discussion You don't, you collectivist nitwit? You think my money belongs to you, if only you wave your wand and start screaming that the sky is falling. You think peoples' money belongs to everybody but them.
Don't look now, but you're a Marxist. A socialist. A collectivist little sheep.
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chris.holt - 20 Sep 2005 19:59 GMT >>I don't see where Marxism comes into the current discussion
> You don't, you collectivist nitwit? You think my money belongs > to you, if only you wave your wand and start screaming that the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Don't look now, but you're a Marxist. A socialist. A collectivist > little sheep. Ah. Because you can't see anything in between black and white, you think no one else can. Ta ra.
 Signature chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
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