Homeowner Forum / Construction / July 2005

Hello,

Now that wehave these:
http://www.rewci.com/rewilliams/recefacofrsh.html
what difference does it make what kind of main-event heating system we put
in now a-days?
In my old farmhouse i turn down the hotwater, baseboard heating system to
a body-warm temp. and ran the circulator 24/7. This was just to keep the
pipes from freezing (Pennsylvania). I heated the massive, eat-in kitchen
with a pot of hot water in one of the ovens (steamed up the windows all to
L), and the massive living/dining room with the Moonlighter kerosene burners,
one with pot of soup on top. Upstairs got no kerosene burner, since heat
rises, thus the upstairs bedrooms with heating blankets were warm enough-
i guess . . . i never went up there, as i slept on a mattress on the floor,
next to the baseboard heat in my office, with a heating blanket. It was rather
strange, because in the dead of winter, where my dog slept at the door of
my room, which was at the foot of the stairs (even asleep i was alert and
on look-out for fire), i could hear her panting. It was stranger because
in the wee hours, i too would have to throw off the heating blanket because
of being too warm. I suspect it had something to do with the wind. It was
an old brick house, i had stuccoed. It had a slate roof. It had a full attic
and a 3-sectioned basement. The old section had been one of those holes-in-the-ground
homes our first forefathers built upon settling America- out side of that
"home" was a stoned-up hand-dug, 45' well, which was different because those
first wells were 35'. The new, add-on basement and shed was neat, because
the artesian well had the overflow run into the basement; smoothed ditches
were built and slanted into the poured-concrete basement all around; leading
into a floor well, where a sump-pump pumped out the excess water. The basement
was used as an indoor springhouse, where i kept my eggs and aged my goats'-milk
cheese. I never felt it was cool enough for the milk, because i had my laundry
facility in there.

The artesian well was sunk during Pennsylvania's probably only and worse
draught. All the farmers from miles around came to the well for water; as
a result it lost its force and eventually had to have a pump put on it, leaving
only a little overflow, so they put that "overflow" which was ice-cold to
good use. It also cooled the house. I bought the 4-acre property for about
$75,000 when my children were babies. I guess itis approaching $1,000,000.00
now;, because that is what all the other properties are in that area of upper
Bucks County. If you use lots of alternative-type energy, when you build
or restore your house, youwillnot only feel, but *BE* empowered and happier
than youhave ever been - i promise you.  

 

Chris Young, AKA Stormin Moron is seldom correct, but often wrong.

Hes not HVAC guy either, but a locksmith that prefers to break down doors
than to open them.

This is Turtle.

Your thoughts or judgement here is on the line of clueless as to be working in
the field of HVAC. Here is where your judgement goes astray.

Using Sq. Ft. Per Ton as just a ideal of estimating size of unit to get a cost
estimate is OK. You can use this to be a Ballpark estimate but nothing else.

Using Sq. Ft. Per Ton as a exact measurement to use and install equipment by is
not OK at all.

Blanket Statement will get you in trouble, but exact statement will make you be
very clear to understand.

TURTLE

I am glad to see everyone is getting along so well.
The way some you people act here, I wouldn't hire you on a bet.

No...you just dont have a clue.

Anyone that states so many SF per ton is a clueless newb.

Your calc, roughing off as you might say, would get you into alot of trouble
with most of the homes we are doing....you would be so oversized that you
would have more than one day in court when the homeowners found out that the
8 tons on their homes was 6 too many.

Anyone that states that we have rules of thumb in HVAC when it comes to a
load calculation, on a home you cant see, is a total idiot.
or an engineer....take your pick.

Phil may be an idiot but how dare you imply he`s an engineer

Wouldn't dream of it.   Nasty  isn't it?

I encountered such a strange mess at one site and had recalled
the Karen Silkwood movie and mentioned that to one of the
guys...  and I had sworn somehow from decades previous that
one way or another I would hose them personally for what they
did to Karen Silkwood.

so the guy said  'are you serious about seeing whats really
going on'?  and issued dire warnings... I said yes...and he
said OK..

that was it.. 6 months later after I was on another non nuc
job I got a call from a firm in Kennewich washington with no
clue on the details just the pay was good, arrive and sign in.

it was Z plant at Hanford, ground zero of the disaster...but
not as bad as Rocky flats I know..but a mess...and it got very
interesting but as you say... regrettable.   I stayed at that
site long enough to keep the promise I made.  I testified
before congress later.

 I typically spend more

It has to last because its contaminated and disposal is a
problem.
The ducts cant be removed.  at Z plant the exhaust ducts and
the 300' tall 20 dia. exhaust stack were caked with big chunks
of PuO..any banging around and  a chunk could fall onto
another one ...if the net mass was over 7# its goes
critical... wont explode because of no containment...but the
reaction will kill everything it can 'shine' though within 50'
or so...thats gamma and x rays at that point, it can penetrate
several feet of concrete... a duct is nothing.

if you see guys walking around there with what looks like
rosatia (big red blotches on exposed skin, those have gotten
contaminated and are on a short string you might say).

Watch out, they use bogus, failed and non function alpha
monitors, so you can be heavily *contaminated (with particles)
and the alarms will not read and your dose tag won't pick it
up either because the alpha *radiation itself is only good for
half an inch in air pretty harmless that way...but the
*particles, ingested or breathed in put heavy point loads on
adjacent cells ... not good.

read the above paragraph again.  notice the difference between
radiation and contamination...with Pu its a bad scene... the
PuO will crawl upstream in an air duct and back out filters
because its a huge Pu atom and tiny O atom that turns the
assembly into a sort of crazy wheel...its effervescent seen
under even a low powered microscope.  a huge molecule.

Try swabbing your dose tag directly with dust from the working
environment and see how that turns out... see an attorney
first but be sure he is not in with the boyz you might
say...its risky business.

Last

  :))  amazing.. impossible to fathom the decay unless you
have been there... you have been obviously.

Those are pressure locks so the core of the building at each
lock runs 0.5" water column lower pressure than the next outer
level...that way all contamination is sucked in and exhausted
out the hepa filtered exhaust.

If it worked.

but it doesnt.. most likely from your description.. so they
are just faking it...and the Pu0 etc crawls back upstream and
gets all over the place.   the code term is 'crap'.  Hear that
term and they are discussing contamination..10,000 times worse
than an equivalent dose of just the radiation, alpha etc, or
gamma itself..
the contamination is a *particle..that gets in you and it
radiates 24/7 for life...on one spot.

you see the difference.  I was the guy that blew the lid off
of that spin job before congress in 1995..in 1997 congress
passed a bill that paid death benefits and health care to
those contaminated, 60,000 workers, in mines and from the
labs...previously denied to cover up the problem.

No we aren't under contract with them, they simply

You are an astute person I can tell...and you know exactly why
they have no HVAC personnel left...see if you can snag an
extra dosometer and swab it with particles from assorted flat
surfaces..then maybe find an independent lab...risky, you
would probably be reported...    what you do now is run your
rates way up at least.  they dont have much other option..they
wont mind...all they care about is you keeping your mouth
shut.

close but you have it reversed... these people knew about the
contamination deal..  they left they were not fired... a bunch
of folks that worked in the glove box areas at Z plant
(changed to the PFP, then the PSSF plant to confuse the
public) turned a few shades of white as I mentioned these
contamination / vs mere radiation differences. It got hairy
after that.

 You are not just smart but you are a philosopher.. a good
man.. and the sign of a world class tech in all cases.   Now
you know about the actual issues...notice the alpha monitors
are built in 1940 and never serviced dust covered, oxide on
all the screws...all bogus you see..same with those hand helds
they scan you with on the way out...1/2" of air stops alpha...
skin stops alpha...internally its nasty.

Notice the wand is an inch or two away, if the thing even
works.

Good luck... go rent 'Silkwood' if you want to know what
happens if you speak up.   The cure for that is to get your
documents etc away in a safe place if there is going to be any
trouble. Then ..err..toasting you is counter productive.   Its
hard to say the level of incompetence of the spooks out there,
probably 30% of the staff.  but if they knew you were talking
to me they will find another contractor... you may want to
consider that in what you type next if you catch my drift.

On the your repair service  issues, I dont think you care if
you loose the account or you wouldnt have posted in the
thread..if you want to keep it though best then not to reply..
although the skull density is so thick in those places that it
might not be risky unless you named the site...they may not
even care at this point.

 Myself I spill the beans every chance I get..   I'm a total
pain in the a.s that way.

Phil Scott
(415) 927 7573

thanks... the abuse comes from alt.hvac  if you want you can
cut them from the address list.   Almost all Florida guys with
some kind of a problem...no significant licensing there.

If you wanted to completely avoid any technical involvement
you could go with a packaged heat pump..then just run ducts to
and from it.   You could do that yourself Im sure...
seriously doubt that would be a problem in your state.

if it is you could still run the ducts yourself, stub in the
wiring, set the concrete pad.. the dealer could then arrive to
just set the unit on the pad and attach the ducts... a two
hour job.

I with a packaged unit like that you have on open refrigerant
lines to solder and contaminate ..thats a big issue. Packaged
units often last a lot longer than split systems.

On the size scoping.... a calc is good... but its still full
of assumptions ...for instance will you suffer 78 degrees
inside on the occasional 100 degee day for a few hours?  If
so...you can go smaller with the sizing... will you suffer say
80 degrees inside and a little extra humidity on a 100 degree
day?   a few days a year for a few hours?   Well find, you can
get by with half the size unit that it will take to keep the
place at 72 on a 100 degree day.

Your only suffering is slight and only on rare hot days... so
its a judgment and options call even more than its a straight
numbers calc.

Some years are also hotter  or cooler than others... the
ambient outside air design conditions published by ASHRAE are
an average... so sizing per the calcs will STILL give you
variable results from year to year.

Then there are the aging issues.  As the unit ages efficiency
drops a bit.

If you dont want to spend much to run the thing and dont like
repair bills but want a reliable unit...go to a smaller unit
but higher efficiency model   SEER 14 is great... SEER 16 is
over kill in the US as rule.      Seasonal Energy Efficiency
Rating... that means its efficiency over the entire running
range of outside air temps.  The high seer units also run
cooler and last longer.

If I owned your house Id leave it in tact replace the furnace
if I felt like it, then put a small split system AC in..   a
refrigerated coil above the furnace (and A coil) copper tubes
to a condensing unit outside... all undersized so your
existing furnace and ducts will handle it...then when its 100
outside for a few hours and the house warms up to 80F  (gasp)
Id make some ice tea.

Cost for that... very low... but a pro has to install the
tubing, make sure he uses dry nitrogen purge when soldering,
and a vacuum pump to purge it...then it will last a long time.
YOu can wrap the air ducts with insulation yourself..dont
worry about condensation especially if you go with a smaller
unit.

the only legal requirement  is that the freon lines need to be
done by a lic guy... you can mount the coil, set the outside
unit on a pad, run the condensate lines, insulate the ducts,
and run the power yourself.

supply air runs only 15F below room air... so its 60F and the
dew point in florida for instance on a fairly humid day is 50F
or colder.   so its not a problem...So Carolina will be even
less of a problem.

Phil Scott

Yup... better to acknowledge the facts... In this neck of the woods, if you
"guestimate", or give a "ballpark" figure, the folks here will hold you to
it. If your wrong either way, your screwed.

There is another contractor here that is one of the "good ol' boys" who has
been using rule of thumb for years, and at this point there are very few
folks that will even let him in their home anymore.

The general populace, even in this back woods town are slowly but surely
becoming educatated about their comfort systems, and whats right and whats
not.

Phil, your justifications are irrelevent.  In sizing a system for a home you
must do a load calc.  How much do you add in for solar gain based on the
direction of the sun.  What do you figure for the type of siding and the
color of the roof.  Do you factor in all of your internal gains, how about
venttilation values.  If there is one person who knows his sh.t about sizing
and proper design it is stretch.  I will not give a rule of thumb answer to
a customer other than it will be between a 2 ton window, and within $2000.
Just to make the point of the many variables involved.

Loads can be done so quickly now in this age of right-draw, and what ever
elite calls theirs.

I am designing a system this weekend for a 30x18 ALL glass sunroom with
glass cathedrall ceiling, what rule of thumb would this take.

I am not beating you up or insulting you, I am just trying to make the point
that unless you are doing it the right way, you are doing it the wrong way.
There is no grey way.

By your own calculations, I need at least 6 tons on my home....wow...imagine
that when the manual T said 3.5 max.
You do WHAT for a living? Incorrectly advise folks about what? It sure isnt
HVAC load calcs.

Phil,
Sorry, my house is 20 years old with cheap single pane wood windows and
very cheap metal framed storm windows.  R-11 walls R-30 & R-38 Attic
insulation & slab floor.  Construction & infiltration is average for
the time based on Blower Door Testing of my house.  Am now putting in
good double pane windows to reduce infiltration.  I did a load
calculation, came up with 24,000 BTUs per hour.  Installed system with
cooling capacity of 26,000 BTUs per hour by installing oversized indoor
unit.  Air flow is 850 CFM measured with a hood.  Dycts are now sealed.
Been running this way for 16 years.

Stretch

HEY!!  It's old, but it ain't Snuffy Smith's house!   :O)
And I did take alt.hvac off the list.  Good advice on that.