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Homeowner Forum / Construction / July 2005Labor, future craftsmen, undocumented workers
Due to the focus that the minuteman project in Arizona is bringing to the immigration from Mexico, I have seen a lot of discussion about this subject lately. Actually, it hasn't been so much discussion as rhetoric. A lot of it is uninformed and just plain lies, which won't lead to a considered and reasoned solution, which this country needs. Illegal immigration has caused problems for a lot of people. Many people see illegals as parasites that come here only to drain our system of its resources. On the other hand, undocumented workers have been building this country for years. And doing the jobs that noone else wants to do. I know that there are impassioned (some might say fanatical) voices on both sides of this issue. Since this has a lot to do with the future of the construction industry, I thought it would be a good topic for a.b.c., as solutions need to be found. And the politicians that are going to decide these issues DO listen to us. I am only familiar with the situation in Texas. It really hasn't changed much here in the 35 years that I have been doing business. Most of the labor intensive work is done by undocumented workers. The laws have changed over the years, but they have been a constant. The way they are hired and paid has changed due to enactment of various laws, but their role has not changed. Texas has been built by undocumented workers, and without them, it would not have been done. There is a good article that describes our situation here in the Austin area. You can read it here: http://are.berkeley.edu/APMP/pubs/i9news/illegalfuelaustin12599.html Their are two issues that I am concerned about, because it will affect my present and future directly. Where am I going to get tradesmen to do construction work in the future? What can I do to insure that there is a supply of labor now without breaking the law? If you read the article, you can see what I am faced with and I don't like the alternatives that I see available to me as a contractor. The supply of GOOD carpenters, laborers, masons, roofers, drywallers, etc. are only coming from one place: Mexico. And yet it is illegal to use them. What happens to the construction industry if undocumented workers are not available to work? Here in Texas, it would come to a halt, and that is not an exaggeration. Yet that is what I hear a lot of voices calling for; send them all back to Mexico, they are criminals, they don't belong here, etc, etc. The Minuteman project in Arizona is a result of this attitude, and I can understand their frustrations. Something is going to happen in the not too distant future, and it worries me. it will affect me, and if the voices calling for a round up are listened to, then my industry will be at least disrupted, if not brought to a complete halt, for a long time. The problem is the labor supply. I don't see anyone that is encouraging their children to go into the building trades. When is the last time that you heard a parent proudly talking about their children that have decided to take up a career in roofing or as a mason? It doesn't happen. The US citizens that are coming into the business are usually getting into it because it is the only thing that they can do. It is definitely not their choice, but what they feel is their last resort. There are exceptions to this, but as a general rule, there are fewer and fewer youngsters coming into the building trades. A lot of the new people have no skills, no ambition, and alot of them are just losers. I hate what I see happening to the construction business. Quality workers are harder and harder to come by,...except the undocumented workers. They are motivated, hardworking, reliable, but it is illegal to hire them. I have gone from having an in house crew to using subcontractors for everything, because I cannot keep a decent crew together with legal workers. And I pay well above the prevailing wages in my area, so it is not the money. It is the supply. I am no admirer of the current president. I didn't vote for him and I don't like what he has done as the leader of this country. I do like the guest worker program that he is talking about, because it is one solution to the problems that I have just outlined. Besides providing a legal way to supply the labor needs of my area, it would also give back some dignity to the men and women who have sweated and labored to build this area. I have many that I consider to be my friends and they deserve some respect. OTOH, I am looking for ways to encourage young people to consider the building trades as an honorable profession. I would like to hear people proudly declare that they are carpenters, plumbers, roofers, etc. like I heard when I was young. A good carpenter was considered a valuable asset to any community. Today, a person in the construction industry is not held in the highest regard by most people. We need to change that attitude, and give the people that build this country the respect that they are due. And that includes the undocumented workers. We need to have a rational discussion of this and put aside the rhetoric. There is a problem here and we need to find a way to solve it. Comments?  SignatureRobert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX Robert, I don't think most people object so much to the origin of immigrants, or even that they're immigrants, as much as they object to illegally using them for labor, and that many of them ARE unskilled, (and unsupervised). Add that to the shortcuts some builders take purposely, lax code enforcement in many areas, and you have a wave of shoddy housing. Naturally people will object, and part of what they object to is unskilled workers that the builder won't take responsibility for. If you're using skilled people and they're legally working here, great. I do object to the notion that these are jobs "no one wants to do," implying Americans won't work in construction, etc. Many Americans DO work in construction now. Before it was common for immigrants and/or illegal immigrants to be doing this work all over the country, Americans did these jobs. Some in my family worked in construction in the upper midwest in the 50's thru 70's. There were no immigrant laborors on these homes. They made a decent living wage and it was a respected profession. The homes built with American labor in those days were not unaffordably expensive compared to the median wage, etc, of those days. Something is wrong with industries that claim they can't get by without using cheap illegal labor. I don't believe we need illegal immigrant labor, but I do see that it's cheap, operates "underground" so there's no benefits, social security, taxes, or workman's comp for the employer to pay, etc. I don't get the impression you're one of the huge builders that makes millions in profits every year, with CEO's that get multi-million dollar bonuses, etc, but there are many large national building co's that do...and they can hardly draw a tear of sympathy from my eye when they say they "can't afford" to use American labor, or skilled labor, or whatever. Also, in my day, (God I sound old), college students and older high school kids did a lot of the jobs immigrants now do, and were glad to get it. > Due to the focus that the minuteman project in Arizona is > bringing to the immigration from Mexico, I have seen a lot of [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > > Comments? > Robert, I don't think most people object so much to the origin of > immigrants, or even that they're immigrants, as much as they object to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > object to is unskilled workers that the builder won't take > responsibility for. > If you're using skilled people and they're legally working here, great. My skilled people are all in supervisory positions. I have one carpenter for punch out etc. All the other work is done by subs. The reason for this is because I could not find enough skilled legal workers to keep a crew together. After fighting it for several years and making less and less, I went with the subs. At least in this area, the labor is not out there. You can go to our local paper and look at the want ads to see how many companies are seeking workers. The ones that respond are not what I would call skilled, but my standards are high. Most of the skilled labor around here are undocumented workers. In the article that I mentioned, both local companies and the INS estimate that illegal workers make up about 70-80% of the work force in construction in this area. > I do object to the notion that these are jobs "no one wants to do," > implying Americans won't work in construction, etc. Many Americans DO [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > days were not unaffordably expensive compared to the median wage, etc, > of those days. Yes, that is the way it used to be. I remember that fondly (I am in my 50s). But around here, there have always been immigrant workers. I was trained by carpenters that spoke no english at all and I learned how to speak spanish as well as how to build a house. I am from Brownsville, TX, which is 85% hispanic in population. I came to central TX 35 years ago and the vast majority of labor was undocumented workers even back then. It hasn't changed since those days. > Something is wrong with industries that claim they can't get by without > using cheap illegal labor. I don't believe we need illegal immigrant [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > from my eye when they say they "can't afford" to use American labor, or > skilled labor, or whatever. Different circumstances may exist in other places, but here construction would literally come to a halt without immigrants. You should read that article. It is not exaggerating the circumstances here. > Also, in my day, (God I sound old), college students and older high > school kids did a lot of the jobs immigrants now do, and were glad to > get it. I have had many kids come through my company, but they are all on their way to some other job, or college or military bound. I haven't had any anglos that plan on making construction their career. It makes it hard to have a long distance plan when you know that all of your help is going to be leaving as soon as they find something better. There was a report published by the Texas labor board here in TX. Out of the 12,000 students surveyed, only .7% were considering a career in construction, and ALL of them were in architecture or engineering. NOT ONE student voiced a desire to have a job in the trades. This could be a result of the high tech boom in this area. >>Due to the focus that the minuteman project in Arizona is >>bringing to the immigration from Mexico, I have seen a lot of [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] >> >>Comments? SignatureRobert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX The working environment, the relative face cost of labor has not changed in Texas including the time period you mentioned. Americans and illegals, side by side, built homes in Texas in the 70's. What has changed is the shift to the quickly built home, shoddy workmanship to maximize profit. And the increased costs of hiring an American, the invisible costs such as workmans's compensation etc. Insurance for the contractor in the event of workmen's comp law suit has risen astronomically. What the worker sees on his pay stub including taxes multiplied by 3 is typically what the contractor must pay. The multiple was less than 2 in the 70's. > Robert, I don't think most people object so much to the origin of > immigrants, or even that they're immigrants, as much as they object to [quoted text clipped - 136 lines] > > > > Comments? Let's say we shut the door to undocumented workers completely.(Will it happen? I doubt it.) Will you have problems finding skilled workers? Short term, yes. What will happen is there will be more people switching to this trade. labor prices will rise. Your cost will rise and so does that for every contractor. You mark up the cost so the cost of housing will also rise. It will just make things more expensive to buy. > Let's say we shut the door to undocumented workers completely.(Will it > happen? I doubt it.) Will you have problems finding skilled workers? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cost of housing will also rise. It will just make things more > expensive to buy. Shutting the door and how it affects the building trade is one concern but a very small one in the grand scheme. There are countless jobs illegals do that NO american would do for the money even if you raised the pay by double. Picking produce in 110 degree sun, etc.. Our economy would suffer immensely. Oranges would cost 20.00ea. and so on. I dont know a single U.S. citizen (even recent immigrants) who would work feeding this country for a few dollars a day. Perhaps it would be a good thing and the fattest country on the planet would be forced on a much needed diet. Mark It's not just a TX or AZ problem, probably more prevalent there due to the proximity to Mexico. Here in the northeast, residential construction, restaurants and landscapers are where most of the illegals find work; very often exploited by their employers due to their status. I agree that this country was built by immigrants, but by and large, they came here legally and strove to become citizens, working hard and paying taxes. The undocumented workers do not pay taxes other than some small portion of their rent. They do, however, put their kids in the public school systems and receive medical care at no cost to them. Who pays for those benefits? YOU do in the form of higher taxes and insurance premiums. Tom > > Let's say we shut the door to undocumented workers completely.(Will it > > happen? I doubt it.) Will you have problems finding skilled workers? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Mark And the cost to US taxpayers here in cali..is outragous...the only American crews I see now days are on Union jobs..imigrants are only used as labors...i.e. cleaning up, and some landscaping.. On non union jobs, you may see 1 skilled carpenter / framer..who is an American..but the rest of the crew is from south of the border, and now most of the sheetrockers, electricans, some plumbers, mason's, and all landscapers...I have to blame some of the contractors..obbviously they make more $$$ in hirering these people, and granted, finding us citizens can be tough...but offering a pay of about 17.00 for a lead carpenter is an Insult, when a union carpenter gets 30.00 per hr. plus benifits. I realize the contractor, needs to make $$$, but if we keep going at this pace, the only Americans working in the construction industry, will be those that are in charge, i.e the contractors, developers, ect.. Oh, and I must say, when I was working for a contractor, I had to fix more that a few mistakes from the So. of the border crews, i.e. drywallers, painters, electricans... You wanna put Americans back to work, then pay em what they are worth... As for the border situation..imho ..it's gettin out of hand, when you have to work with a 18 yr. old kid, from so. america, who's been here 2 days, doesn't speak a word of English...somethings wrong..and it's also dangerous, comunication needs to be a part of the job.. With the millions of illegals here already...example, look on many street corners, that have anywhere from 10 to 100 migrants every day of the week, standing around waiting form some easy $$$...yes, most only want easy jobs...I know from past experience..mention hard work, and they run for the hills..yet they want you to buy them lunch, drive them home, or close to it, they also expect you to pay them well over the minimum wage. So...I'm all for Closing the borders..how many more millions of people do you want in a given city anyway..?? And lets not forget, they tend to Drive...and without Insurance, if they get in a accident, they either give fake i.d's, and or run to Mexico, and WE get stuck with the bill... When is the country of Mexico gonna Step up to the plate, and do something about their economy..? Oh wait, it's easier to mooch off of us..being that the $$$ brought into Mexico from the US is Mexico's biggest revenu.. You wanna come here legally, and pay your way..fine, but don't expect me and mine to do it for you.. > It's not just a TX or AZ problem, probably more prevalent there due to the > proximity to Mexico. Here in the northeast, residential construction, [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > > > Mark > It's not just a TX or AZ problem, probably more prevalent there due to the > proximity to Mexico. Here in the northeast, residential construction, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Tom We pay their benefits in trade for the cheap food and labor. You could see the current administration sewing the seeds for keeping access to this cheap labor throughout the election and especially at the convention. They know full well we will be crushed if we lose access to it. It is now a necessary evil. Its far from a perfect, or even good, situation but unfortunately its a simple set of agree or disagree decisions followed by consequences from either side of the argument. The problem is that no matter which side you argue there are direct short term (forget about the long) consequences that are flatly unacceptable to all americans regardless of their position. I have had this conversation countless times with friends, family, customers, etc. and in every situation when you pose the most simple questions regarding illegals they have no answers or they would refuse to accept the repercussions to the very answers they provide. For instance again using the produce scenario... Q: So you close the border, who picks the produce? A: American workers. Q: So provided you could even find a single american that would work in 110 degree fields, or even survive doing it for a single 8 hour day, do you think they would work for a few dollars a day? A: No, we would pay them more. Q: So you are willing to pay 20.00 for an orange at WalMart? A: No Q: So what would you do? At this point the conversation usually devolves into forcing welfare recipients, prisoners, people getting unemployment, and so on to do the work. The above hasnt even gotten the issue out of the starting gate and it has a flat tire. The simple fact is that these illegals fill a need that the american consumer is unwilling to admit they demand directly through their buying habits. Its the same as the low wage, kept part time, uninsured, no sick days, workforce we are building ever faster at Walmart and so on. The american consumer is solely driving its growth with its insatiable demand for less and less expensive goods while being all to willing to believe the lie that they are also quality goods. Couple this with the corporate willingness to do absolutely anything to drive down costs from its suppliers and there is no other outcome than lower and lower quality goods, services, and employment. Its basic math. Mark >>>Let's say we shut the door to undocumented workers completely.(Will it >>>happen? I doubt it.) Will you have problems finding skilled workers? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >>Mark > > It's not just a TX or AZ problem, probably more prevalent there due to the > > proximity to Mexico. Here in the northeast, residential construction, [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > >> > >>Mark I think that $20.00 per orange is somewhat exaggerated. It's estimated that the cost of labor included in the price of vegetables is approximately 10 percent of the total price paid at the supermarket. http://www.migrationint.com.au/ruralnews/bosnia-herc/oct_1995-06rmn.asp I just bought oranges for 33 cents each. So the labor costs included in each of those oranges is 3.3 cents. Assume that orange pickers are paid $8.00 per hour. Triple that wage to $24.00 per hour. Then, assuming all other overhead remains the same, we have (old wage rate)/(old labor costs per orange)=(new wage rate)/(new labor cost per orange). That is, $8.00/3.3cents=$24.00/(new labor cost per orange). So the new labor cost per orange = 9.9 cents. Then the price per orange will be 33+(9.9-3.3)=39.3 cents. And, by the way, from 1975 to 1986, I picked oranges in Florida. One quickly becomes accustomed to the heat, and to the hard physical work, to the point of actually enjoying it. There were many other American citizens working in those groves. However, because of the influx of illegals, the piece rates paid during that period of high inflation remained the same, or lower, year after year. So, I gave it up as a bad cause, as did most other Americans. If only the wages had been higher. > I think that $20.00 per orange is somewhat exaggerated. It's estimated > that the cost of labor included in the price of vegetables is [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > remained the same, or lower, year after year. So, I gave it up as a bad > cause, as did most other Americans. If only the wages had been higher. I have a hard time arguing with growers and government officials from agricultural states who are outspoken about the fact that there are few americans who could, and moreso would, tollerate such a work environment for more than a few days. John McCain for one has been very outspoken on the issue having been in the fields. He has been quoted repeatedly stating that many crops in his state and the country would go unpicked if it werent for illegals. He has also said many times that knowing his constituants he is very confident in saying no one in his state would be out harvesting for long even with marked increases in pay. The info you posted speaks to this directly. "Most of the complaints about the H-2A program centered on US workers recruited for employers at public expense who, according to farmers, do not show up, work hard, or remain with the employer. Other factors include the requirement that growers pay H-2A workers the higher of three wages--prevailing, minimum, or adverse effect wage rate--and provide housing at no charge to the temporary foreign workers." We will have to be in a very desparate state for the average american to be eager to climatize themselves to 100+ degree fields and 8 hours of harvesting in the direct sun. Even with some grace period I dont think the average american would last very long. Production would decrease and costs would go up. Mark John M is a jackass. Hey you ever been in the military? To Nam or Iraq etc? Do u know what temps we were subjected to? 100+ 12 or more hours per day! And guess how much we got paid?? Not much! The only reason farmers hire these workers is because they are CHEAP and want to make a big profit..THey don't care about them selling the country out and taking jobs from Americans. Farmers take advantage of cheap labor...I hope they get hit by locusts. >> I think that $20.00 per orange is somewhat exaggerated. It's estimated >> that the cost of labor included in the price of vegetables is [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >Mark Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to convince the public that the cost of living will rise if we oppose something, they have the money to pay for professional PR, "spin doctoring," to convince us. The media, eager to keep their advertisers happy, plays along. I'd gladly pay 3 cents more for an orange to know the workers were legal and were treated at least in a way that met the minimum standards for working conditions, pay, etc. Illegals should not be here for so many reasons. I have no problem with people entering legally. > Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for > low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not be here for so many reasons. I have no problem with people > entering legally. Would you be willing to pay 50% more for your home? About 5 years ago, I did an estimate for a guy to build a small office building (looked and was built like a house). It was 3800 sf, so not far off of a house in size. We had to do some major utility work, so the site work was pretty high, but other than that, it was about like any house you would build. I did the estimate and the total came to around 550,000.00 bucks. He liked the estimate, but wanted to do the entire job using only union companies. This was not because he did not like illegal workers, but because he was a retired union official and wanted to support the unions, etc., etc. This is not a union area, so I had to work about 3 more weeks to find and get proposals from union companies. The materials stayed the same since I was buying them, but the labor rates changed. Total price with the union labor: 776,000 bucks. That was close to 50% higher. I gave the new estimate to the client. He decided that non union workers were fine for his project and we built it at the lower price. That is about the only real world comparison that I have between standard labor and non illegal labor around here. (Please note that this may be only true in this area.) I was shocked by the difference and so was the client. Now I don't know if this illustrates how much lower rates are when illegal workers are used, or how much higher union rates are. I don't have a real world comparison between non union, non illegal labor and standard labor, and don't have a valid way of finding out what they would be. But it does illustrate how even a person with an agenda will cave in when the bottom line hurts his pocketbook. People in this area think that houses cost too much even WITH the use of illegal labor. SignatureRobert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX > > Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for > > low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Rimshot, Inc. > Georgetown, TX Then I have a question for you...If you pay these Illegal workers so well, why do you have so much trouble Keeping them as labors..? IMHO, it's contrators like you who keep the problem of such workers on the rise..It's time to put American citizens to work, not support the country of Mexico. >>>Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for >>>low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > rise..It's time to put American citizens to work, not support the country of > Mexico. You didn't answer his question: Would you be willing to pay 50% more for your house to use union labor? It isn't the contractor's fault, it is the fault of people who don't want to pay the prices that are required for products and services made or provided using Americian workers. Matt Matt, The original post concerned illegal vs. legal employees, not the cost of illegals vs. union labor. You're doing the classic apples to oranges bit. I'm pretty sure there are non-union tradesmen in TX that are citizens or documented workers who don't work under the table for substandard wages and do pay taxes like most of us. I have no doubt the problem is larger in the residential sector than public, commercial or heavy construction due in part to extremely loose oversight of labor practices in that sector as well as some of the reasons stated earlier by Mark, this is everywhere, not just TX. I think it's a safe bet, the contractors who worked on your home were non-union, but I doubt they were illegals. Tom > >>>Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for > >>>low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Matt He might change his mind in a few years when HE is working for a mexicano! >> > Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for >> > low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >rise..It's time to put American citizens to work, not support the country of >Mexico. > He might change his mind in a few years when HE is working for > a mexicano! I don't know who you are responding to here. >>>>Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for >>>>low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >>rise..It's time to put American citizens to work, not support the country of >>Mexico. SignatureRobert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX <<Snipped>> > Then I have a question for you...If you pay these Illegal workers so well, > why do you have so much trouble Keeping them as labors..? > > IMHO, it's contrators like you who keep the problem of such workers on the > rise..It's time to put American citizens to work, not support the country of > Mexico. I don't have any illegal workers. I only have a few anglos on my payroll. I explained in an earlier post that I could not keep an inhouse crew together, so now I sub out everything except punch out and supervision. When I did use undocumented workers, I had no trouble keeping them. They were very dependable. It is the legal workers that I have trouble keeping. And I do pay higher than the standard for this area. SignatureRobert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX > Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for > low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not be here for so many reasons. I have no problem with people > entering legally. Ahh, good then so,as and example, when you go to the grocery do you buy Living Wage Coffee? Coffee where the harvesters are merely paid a living wage (for their area)? This means they are paid enough to afford shelter and food for their family and to send their children to school. No 4 bedroom, 3 bath, 3 car garage, etc.. Basic shelter, food, school. There are countless items in the grocery, lumber yard, car lot, where consumers are offered a "conciencious" product which usually is better quality at a slightly higher price. In most instances these items are dogs as the american consumer simply doesnt back up what they schmooze about at parties when it comes right down to their wallet. The same goes for the building trade. Most all in the trade have surely had to try numerous times to disuede their customers from wanting to swap a quoted quality item for a piece of sh*t they saw at the home center thats a few bucks cheaper. Most customers only want to see the dollar amount not the low quality. This is not even an issue of fair wage or local workers. Its one that affects the customer directly in that THEY are wanting to install a P.O.S. they will have to live with for life. If I ever had to try to sell a customer on a product that cost more simply because it was made by a company that practices fair wage I would be shot down 98% of the time. The vast majority simply arent willing to pay more for something they cant see right in front of their face. The quintessential quote I ever got from a customer that in my opinion embodies this entire topic was: "Hey, I dont care..., I want WHAT I want, WHEN I want it, at the CHEAPEST price, no matter WHAT the cost" The "no matter what the cost" is the scary part. Mark >> Lil Dave and heck make good points. I've also worked in the heat for >> low wages, as did/do many Americans. When corporate America wants to [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Mark So true, so true. If I were to form a company and pay the wages that I would have to pay to keep legal anglo workers long enough to form a construction team, I would be out of business due to customer bias toward lower costs. This is the dilemma. I want to do the legal thing, but I want to stay in business. It is becoming difficult to do both. Here is the deal. I KNOW what the situation IS. What I am trying to do is get some suggestions about how to make things better. Right now, the guest worker program is the ONLY solution on the horizon (or at least the only one that has any hope of success). Surely that is not the only possible solution. Anyone have any new ideas? Personally, I am sick of all the rhetoric and name calling. I would like to have some honest discussion about possible solutions. SignatureRobert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX ... > Personally, I am sick of all the rhetoric and name calling. I > would like to have some honest discussion about possible > solutions. Wouldn't we all on almost <any> topic, any more? :( Unfortunately, it'll never happen as long as the present mindset of politicians is "win over the other guy at any cost" and news outlets are "create as much strife and conflict as possible" in order to sell advertising. As for the problem, I think it's mandatory to stem the tide of illegals and upgrade the level of support of INS in order to process applications in a timely fashion, but I'm adamantly opposed to totally open borders and the blanket amnesty plans. I'm not sure what the number limits should be, but they need to be realistic and somewhat on the low side as opposed to high... > Here is the deal. I KNOW what the situation IS. What I am trying to do > is get some suggestions about how to make things better. Right now, the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Personally, I am sick of all the rhetoric and name calling. I would > like to have some honest discussion about possible solutions. Oddly tonight on CBS nightly news they had a segment on the very topic. It focused on mexican illegals having zeroed in on GA now rather than CA. They interviewed many of them saying that the money paid in GA is far better than that of the boreder states. They only inverviewed some opposing parties who were protesting at the GA capital and US capital looking for stricter laws, beefing up the border, and so on. There wasnt even a mention (that I heard) about the guest worker program. Sadly, I dont have any better ideas than those which are commonly passed around. From a personal standpoint about the only thing I would think one could truley rely on is your reputation and established customer base helping you get business from like minded customers who are interested in using local labor or wanting you specifically. In a competetive marketplace though I could see that not guaranteeing food on the table. Unfortunately it seems that wait for the customer to "connect" to the issue is futile, and legislation doesnt seem like it will be a great solution either. Even with the guest worker program it would seem everyone would simply be competing on a lower playing field, though it would at least be more level. Mark I tried to work for local farmers. They won't hire me. One farmer put it - he has his 'friends', i.e. immigrants. I saw them in his field and the farmer immediately headed me off the area where the obvious immigrants were. Don't even begin to tell me that Americans won't do this work. I would as I needed something since my career in high tech went to hell. I worked in the farms as a youngster and always figured this type of work as a fall back income if the crap ever hit the fan, which it did. Some pay would be better than none, and I don't want no stinking welfare. As a somewhat disabled veteran as well, I thought my country was above what I have been forced to try and survive in. >> Let's say we shut the door to undocumented workers completely.(Will it >> happen? I doubt it.) Will you have problems finding skilled workers? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Mark > Shutting the door and how it affects the building trade is one concern > but a very small one in the grand scheme. There are countless jobs [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Mark Hoo boy, did you leave out some very important facts. A legal citizen must pay taxes such as local/State/Federal, they must pay into SS, the employer must pay into SS. By using illegals, the entire American society suffers except the companies/corporations which hire them. The legal citizens would make a lot less after taxes than the illegals at the same rate. The corporations/companies gain by not paying their fair share into the system. Your hypothetical implication that "NO American would do for the money even if you raised the pay by double" is just that; _hypothetical_. Please name one instance in where pay was doubled for statistical information. Your hypothetical pricing on oranges is more _hypothetical_ nonsense with absolutely no substance to back up your figures. I truly hope you don't believe your own nonsense. > > "M&S" wrote > >> Shutting the door and how it affects the building trade is one concern >> but a very small one in the grand scheme. There are countless jobs >> illegals do that NO american would do for the money even if you raised >> the pay by double. Picking produce in 110 degree sun, etc.. Our economy >> would suffer immensely. Oranges would cost 20.00ea. and so on. I dont >> know a single U.S. citizen (even recent immigrants) who would work >> feeding this country for a few dollars a day. >> >> Perhaps it would be a good thing and the fattest country on the planet >> would be forced on a much needed diet. >> >> Mark > > > Hoo boy, did you leave out some very important facts. > > A legal citizen must pay taxes such as local/State/Federal, they must pay > into SS, the employer must pay into SS. > > By using illegals, the entire American society suffers except the > companies/corporations which hire them. The legal citizens would make a lot > less after taxes than the illegals at the same rate. The > corporations/companies gain by not paying their fair share into the system. Free hint to the clueless........corporations and companies do not pay into the S.S. system.....it is all part of your wages......the fact that half the S.S. is not calculated WRT income tax calculations doesn't mean that it is not a cost of employing a person. Unfortunately, the guvmint has suckered too many simpletons into believing that the employer is contributing.....in reality, it is part of your wage, figured into the net of what an employer can afford to pay someone. > > Your hypothetical implication that "NO American would do for the money even > if you raised the pay by double" is just that; _hypothetical_. Please name > one instance in where pay was doubled for statistical information. Your > hypothetical pricing on oranges is more _hypothetical_ nonsense with > absolutely no substance to back up your figures. > > I truly hope you don't believe your own nonsense. > > Free hint to the clueless........corporations and companies do not pay > into the S.S. system.....it is all part of your wages......the fact that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > contributing.....in reality, it is part of your wage, figured into the net > of what an employer can afford to pay someone. You mean my accountants wrote out checks to OASDI @ 6.2% & MHI @ 1.45% for each employee, and didn't have to? I'll have to remind them, I read in a.b.c. that Paul said companies and corporations do not pay into the system. I realize you're attempting to wrap all costs as part of wages, but it doesn't work that way in reality. You're correct if you were to say it's part of doing business, which I believe you gave a half-assed attempt by saying "doesn't mean that it is not a cost of employing a person." The fact remains, the employer is contributing. > > "P. Fritz" wrote >> Free hint to the clueless........corporations and companies do not pay >> into the S.S. system.....it is all part of your wages......the fact that >> half the S.S. is not calculated WRT income tax calculations doesn't mean >> that it is not a cost of employing a person. Unfortunately, the guvmint >> has suckered too many simpletons into believing that the employer is >> contributing.....in reality, it is part of your wage, figured into the net >> of what an employer can afford to pay someone. > > You mean my accountants wrote out checks to OASDI @ 6.2% & MHI @ 1.45% for > each employee, and didn't have to? > > I'll have to remind them, I read in a.b.c. that Paul said companies and > corporations do not pay into the system. > > I realize you're attempting to wrap all costs as part of wages, but it > doesn't work that way in reality. You're correct if you were to say it's > part of doing business, which I believe you gave a half-assed attempt by > saying "doesn't mean that it is not a cost of employing a person." > > The fact remains, the employer is contributing. The fact remains that it is part of the cost of employing someone, and as such is part of their wages whether it shows on their paycheck or not. It is that way in reality. You hire someone, it cost X dollars an hour, regardless of how much ends up in their pockets at the end of the week. The fact that it is taken before they see it........is simply the guvmints way of hiding the true cost of taxation. > > > > > > > > > > The fact that it is taken before they see it........is simply the guvmints > way of hiding the true cost of taxation. I do agree. >>Shutting the door and how it affects the building trade is one concern >>but a very small one in the grand scheme. There are countless jobs [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > By using illegals, the entire American society suffers except the > companies/corporations which hire them. I actually argue that as sad as it is we actually benefit, cheap food, cheap labor, for work that most domestic labor wont do. There are of course cases where they are filling positions domestics would do but I dont think its wise to lose them all together. I would of course much rather see all the unemployed, young kids, be able to go to the fields, clean houses, work, make money, and so on. They wont. Most individuals, other than in extreme, desperate, situations would never _choose_ it as their profession. In this country it would most always be a temporary job until one found something better. In good times there would be very few as many will be in "better" jobs. > The legal citizens would make a lot > less after taxes than the illegals at the same rate. The > corporations/companies gain by not paying their fair share into the system. Of course, same as when one of us takes on a high school student on summer break, pay them under the table for a few months. This is what I was referring to when I said prices would go up much more than merely that of the increased per hour rate paid. > Your hypothetical implication that "NO American would do for the money even > if you raised the pay by double" is just that; _hypothetical_. Please name > one instance in where pay was doubled for statistical information. Your > hypothetical pricing on oranges is more _hypothetical_ nonsense with > absolutely no substance to back up your figures. Again, of course they're hypothetical. That said they're based on countless pieces of informal information some I sited. We are very recently out of an election where these topics were discussed fairly extensively i.e. GW - TX - Speaking spanish at the convention - I directly quoted from a site in another post which quoted growers saying when they hired american labor they did not show up, did not work hard, and did not stay for long. The same site stated that these local workers had to be paid the higher of three prevailing wages. Yet the outcome was no show, no work, and high turnover. Look, Micky D's cant hold onto low wage employees and they are inside and get to eat all the fries they can sneak!! :) You think sweating in the fields, lugging totes of produce, working bent over all day, fingers raw, and getting to sneak the occasional bite out of a rutabaga is gonna keep people flocking to the field gates jumping like kids at the carnival every morning asking for work? "Pick me! Pick me!" I wouldn't do it for 15.00 an hour and you will never see that rate in the fields. Furthermore if it were to be done by domestic labor it would be short order before you would have all sorts of gvt. organizations in there claiming unfit work environment, breathing dust is bad, bending over all day, ergonomic consultants, mandatory hydration breaks every hour, employer issued stools so they can sit, umbrellas, on and on. I now revise my 20.00 per orange price to 50.00 per orange. Heheh As for the example posted by heck stating that the price of an orange may only increase by $.03 if labor costs doubled is utterly naive in my opinion but I didn't bother to ask for better clarification. If anyone can show me a single industry whose labor costs doubled overnight and it didn't have a marked impact on either their bottom line or the selling price of their product or service I will gladly eat my words. We all know its ludicrous and doesn't need any data to be proven so. Whether the orange would go up by twenty, forty, eighty, or two hundred percent, it would go up a lot with labor costs doubling (it would be far more than double by the time you factor in payroll taxes, benefits, breaks, reduced productivity, and turnover). Robert's post showing a 50% increase merely due to labor costs would be more realistic in most businesses. My point was, and still is, that when an individual states they disagree with the use of illegal labor you then say "O.K., we'll send them all home, but you realize much of your food costs will rise dramatically, perhaps double, triple, or even higher" they will immediately find this flatly unacceptable. Then you say "Oh, so you want to keep them here?", "No", "What do you want to do?"...... Read Robert Allisons second post again and you will see a perfect example that relates specifically to the building trade. Here is a perfect scenario of where we may be headed. This week the bed of my work truck was in diar need of cleaning. Scraps, junk, empty water bottles, sawdust, so on. Pair of gloves, couple trash bags, broom and shovel kind of work. Local kid comes by the job, 10-12 years old, I tell him, you wanna make a couple bucks, clean out the bed of my truck, I will get you the stuff out of the trailer. First thing out of his mouth "how much". I said "ten bucks". Figured bust it out in 15-20 minutes, 40.00/hour is good money. He said no, just for sh*ts I offered him 20.00, he still said no and hung around the job for a while chatting. There is your eager field worker in 10 years turning down 80.00 an hour. I remember when I was a teenager I think I painted about 400 lineal feet of rough sawn fence for a neighbor. Both sides, with buckets of used motor oil he had been saving up. He paid me 20.00 as I recal. I wasnt happy, but it was 20 bucks I enjoyed spending. Mark > I truly hope you don't believe your own nonsense. > >>Shutting the door and how it affects the building trade is one concern > >>but a very small one in the grand scheme. There are countless jobs [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > course cases where they are filling positions domestics would do but I > dont think its wise to lose them all together. I would of course much > rather see all the unemployed, young kids, be able to go to the fields, > clean houses, work, make money, and so on. They wont. Most individuals, > other than in extreme, desperate, situations would never _choose_ it as > their profession. In this country it would most always be a temporary > job until one found something better. In good times there would be very > few as many will be in "better" jobs. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > workers had to be paid the higher of three prevailing wages. Yet the > outcome was no show, no work, and high turnover. Look, Micky D's cant > hold onto low wage employees and they are inside and get to eat all the > fries they can sneak!! :) You think sweating in the fields, lugging [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Furthermore if it were to be done by domestic labor it would be short > order before you would have all sorts of gvt. organizations in there > claiming unfit work environment, breathing dust is bad, bending over all [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > As for the example posted by heck stating that the price of an orange > may only increase by $.03 if labor costs doubled is utterly naive in my > opinion but I didn't bother to ask for better clarification. If anyone [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > My point was, and still is, that when an individual states they disagree > with the use of illegal labor you then say "O.K., we'll send them all > home, but you realize much of your food costs will rise dramatically, > perhaps double, triple, or even higher" they will immediately find this > flatly unacceptable. Then you say "Oh, so you want to keep them here?", [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of my work truck was in diar need of cleaning. Scraps, junk, empty water > bottles, sawdust, so on. Pair of gloves, couple trash bags, broom and > shovel kind of work. Local kid comes by the job, 10-12 years old, I tell > him, you wanna make a couple bucks, clean out the bed of my truck, I > will get you the stuff out of the trailer. First thing out of his mouth > "how much". I said "ten bucks". Figured bust it out in 15-20 minutes, > 40.00/hour is good money. He said no, just for sh*ts I offered him > 20.00, he still said no and hung around the job for a while chatting. > There is your eager field worker in 10 years turning down 80.00 an hour. > I remember when I was a teenager I think I painted about 400 lineal feet > of rough sawn fence for a neighbor. Both sides, with buckets of used > motor oil he had been saving up. He paid me 20.00 as I recal. I wasnt > happy, but it was 20 bucks I enjoyed spending. > > Mark > > > I truly hope you don't believe your own nonsense. Assume the cost of labor that goes into a product ammounts to 10% of its sellimg price, which is approximately true for an orange. If the cost of labor doubles, and just the increased labor costs are passed on to the consumer, then, clearly, the selling price increases by 10%. That is, a 30 cent orange then sells for 33 cents. However if labor costs ammounted to 50% of the selling price(Which may be the case in new home construction. I dont know the percentage.), then if wages were doubled, the selling price would have to rise by at least 50%. Thus, a $200,000.00 home would then sell for $300,000.00. Now, for the real world. Assume wages for orange pickers are doubled. Then, in all likelihood, the price of oranges would at least double; the growers would blame the entire price increase on higher labor costs as they pocketed their additional profits. Or, meybe not. Admittedly, I am highly prejudiced against growers. ... > Now, for the real world. Assume wages for orange pickers are doubled. > Then, in all likelihood, the price of oranges would at least double; > the growers would blame the entire price increase on higher labor costs > as they pocketed their additional profits. Or, meybe not. Admittedly, > I am highly prejudiced against growers. I think your prejudice is misguided...in such a scenario it is likely that prices to <growers> would escalate very little, and probably not enough to fully cover the increased cost...where the increases would be would be through the packers and other distribution channels. As an example, when I was growing up on the farm, we sold cash wheat at roughly $2/bu. Cash wheat right now is only roughly $3 and was as low as $1.80 or so just a year or so ago. Meanwhile, ag diesel has gone from <$0.30 to >$1.50 and that's only one of the input costs...virtually all ag products are priced similarly. > Due to the focus that the minuteman project in Arizona is > bringing to the immigration from Mexico, I have seen a lot of [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > > Comments? The nails you use were probably made in China. As are many other things we all buy. The name of the game is maximum profit by the sellers, and minimum cost to the consumer (us). Neither behavior will change, irregardless the affect on the labor support structure for making these products within the U.S. boundaries. What happened to "Buy American"? All the labor laws in the U.S. do nothing for the need for inexpensive labor. Only stymie and hinder the source of this inexpensive labor for construction activities. Am Texas native. Another situtation I've observed is naturalized citizens seeking to make a living in this country in some construction area. These people have to pay the same cost of living as you and I. The illegal aliens are also detrimental to these peoples as they compete for the same jobs. This is widespread throughout Texas. Many Caucasions mistake the naturalized citizen for an illegal. This guy is caught in the middle of this ignorance, and is usually offered similar pay as an illiegal. Another situation I"ve observed is the native, white American in Texas. He's competing with both the naturalized citizen and the illegal. He's relatively poor, but even that standard of living is difficult to bear with a small family. He may work all day, and you may see him at Lowes or HD at night and on weekends stocking the shelves. The reason most people don't aspire their children to construction for a career is self-observant by the evidence you've already supplied, and the previous paragragh. The only exception is labor union oriented type construction activities for craftsman, not laborers. Or, possibly, owning their own construciton firm which relies on inexpensive labor to make a profit. What I"ve recommended to my children is to find a good-paying job in a lucrative field of their choice. Buy some land where they desire to live in the future during their early working years over time. In the meantime, learn on their own about the various areas of construction of building a home and the laws and codes that may drive it. Use this information either to build their own home, or fall back on this information when someone builds one for them to assure a quality product, or both in the case of a partially built home. And, to build as Green / Earth friendly as possible as their budget may support. Close the door on ILLEGAL workers and heavy fines on companies who hire them. It is very un patriotic to undercut american wages with illegals who take our jobs and send the money to Mexico. Is it really the contractors or the home buyers fault? In my state you have 30 days to license your car, how come the building sites are filled with cars from other states( all near the southern borders)? We have a law about driving with out insurance, but can an illegal get car insurance. We are required to have a state drivers license within 90 days, what about the illegals? We have laws against non family members living in single family dwellings, not very well enforced. We have been paying income taxes, federal, state, and local. how does an illegal do this? We are required to have workman comp. insurance, what about the illegals? We are required to have general liability insurance, what about the illegals? We are required to have a contractors license, what about the illegals? We are required to pay unemployment insurance, both state and federal, how does and illegal do this? We pay over 15% to fica and Medicaid taxes, what about the illegals? With out all these burdens put on our backs, by lazy government officials who won't enforce the laws that they have forced on our working class, perhaps more Americans would want to labor in the sun. After more than thirty years of building, I have turned more and more to cash jobs and have decided to screw the government, as they have screwed me, for the remainder of my working life. My income is much improved. I feel much better about the illegals, and when enough of the craftsmen go to cash, it will be the government workers who are sitting on their butts letting the illegals in that will see their income drop. Remember, it is the same government worker that is keeping the illegals out and enforcing all of the laws, that has to come catch you for working for cash. I should live so long. The dumbest thing I ever did was to start paying all these taxes thirty plus years ago so that government officials could live fat off of my work, and do nothing to keep the playing field level. Bill > Close the door on ILLEGAL workers and heavy fines on companies who hire > them. It is very un patriotic to undercut american wages with illegals > who take our jobs and send the money to Mexico. > Close the door on ILLEGAL workers and heavy fines on companies who hire > them. It is very un patriotic to undercut american wages with illegals > who take our jobs and send the money to Mexico. I can say this without any qualms whatsoever. That will not work without severe disruption of your life and the lives of everyone else in this country. The fact is, it is unworkable on many levels. The most obvious one is that there is no door to shut. Instead there is a 2,000 mile border with Mexico and there are people with starving families on the southern side. OTOH, if the president creates and invokes a guest worker program whereby it is legal to use these guys (as they would then not be illegal workers), you would be fine with the status quo? After all, we would no longer be undercutting wages with illegal workers. SignatureRobert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX Our border with Mexico certainly can be secured to a high degree. The monetary cost would be partially absorbed by the drop in welfare cost's now gobbled up in huge quantities by illegals. The political cost would be a bit more fearsome, but we are headed in that direction at a good pace, you can thank Bin Laden for that. JTMcC. >> Close the door on ILLEGAL workers and heavy fines on companies who hire >> them. It is very un patriotic to undercut american wages with illegals [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you would be fine with the status quo? After all, we would no longer be > undercutting wages with illegal workers. Your arguement strikes me like this, lets say the mob controls the cost of concrete in my part of the world. You argue that we must somehow find a way to make the mob legitimate. Others, like me, argue that it's a better solution to remove the mob influence. Price up or price down, illegal influence needs to be reduced/eliminated. JTMcC. >> Close the door on ILLEGAL workers and heavy fines on companies who hire >> them. It is very un patriotic to undercut american wages with illegals [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you would be fine with the status quo? After all, we would no longer be > undercutting wages with illegal workers. > Your arguement strikes me like this, lets say the mob controls the cost of > concrete in my part of the world. You argue that we must somehow find a way [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > JTMcC. Lets use a slightly different analogy since mob has such a negative connotation and I don't think that illegal aliens are on par with people like the mob. Suppose every gas station in america were to be found to be breaking the law due to environmental flaws in their dispensing equipment. Would your solution then be to shut down every gas station in america until the problem could be repaired? Disruption would be widespread, but illegal is illegal and we should stop it "at all costs"? This is the situation that I see. If we were to somehow be able to do what you suggest, wouldn't the cure be worse than the disease even if only for a few years? If we were to vaporize all the illegal aliens tomorrow, I can tell you that if you got a permit to build a house here, it would be probably five years before it could be started. That is the kind of disruption that would occur here. I know that if you are not in the south, the delays may not be as long as that, but I would be looking for a different line of work. The economy here would show people what a real depression is like, much less recession. If you lived here would you be willing to suffer through possible bankrupcy to enforce your beliefs? I don't want to go that way, as I have children to feed and they like to eat every day. This has been my business for 35 years and I would hate to lose it. Surely there is a better way. SignatureRobert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX >>>Close the door on ILLEGAL workers and heavy fines on companies who hire >>>them. It is very un patriotic to undercut american wages with illegals [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>you would be fine with the status quo? After all, we would no longer be >>undercutting wages with illegal workers. > > Your arguement strikes me like this, lets say the mob controls the cost of > > concrete in my part of the world. You argue that we must somehow find a way [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > >>Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc. > >>Georgetown, TX Where I live, there are, as yet, no illegal aliens. All construction, roofing, lawncare, etc., is done by American citizens. The wages of those workers stay right here in the community to the benefit of other businesses. Unlike if they were illegals who send a good portion of their wages out of country resulting in little benefit for the area where they work. If all illegal aliens were deported, people here would hardly notice. If they are not needed here why are they needed other places? >Where I live, there are, as yet, no illegal aliens. All construction, >roofing, lawncare, etc., is done by American citizens. The wages of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >would hardly notice. If they are not needed here why are they needed >other places? I'll bet that any one of us sends more money "out of the country" than any illegal. Buy a new vehicle? Check to see if any of the parts came from Canada or Mexico. A US made Toyota or Honda; guess where the profit goes. Electronics? Name one that is US made. Check the origin of your produce. Find some lamb that is not from Australia or New Zealand. Wal-Mart's slogan, "Bringing it home to the USA" from China. We are all employing foreigners; whether in this country or their own. Would it be better for the local economy to buy a Toyota from the local Toyota dealer, or would it be better for the local economy to take my money to Mexico and buy a toyota from a Mexican Toyota dealer? > Would it be better for the local economy to buy a Toyota from the local > Toyota dealer, or would it be better for the local economy to take my > money to Mexico and buy a toyota from a Mexican Toyota dealer? If the Toyota at the local dealer was made in Japan and the Toyota at the Mexican dealer was made in the USA, then it would help the USA economy more to buy the Toyota in Mexico. Matt > Would it be better for the local economy to buy a Toyota from the local > Toyota dealer, or would it be better for the local economy to take my > money to Mexico and buy a toyota from a Mexican Toyota dealer? Heck, I cant resist. Are you under 25? Mark > > Would it be better for the local economy to buy a Toyota from the local > > Toyota dealer, or would it be better for the local economy to take my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mark No. I'm retired. >>>Would it be better for the local economy to buy a Toyota from the > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > No. I'm retired. Utterly impossible There is such a misconception that illegals only suck from society's tit, and give nothing in return. I beg to differ with this opinion. I have three Mexican workers, that are illegal. Now, before everyone flames me, yes, they supplied me with the necessary documents (social security card and INS work permit). Could they be fake? Sure. Is it my job to enforce the law concerning the validity of their documents? No it is not. As an employer, I am only required to have copies of their documents. There is no requirement to check the validity. All this said, each of my workers lives in the community. They shop at the grocery store, they buy clothes, shoes, gas, milk,eggs, etc. (just go to Wal-Mart on a Sunday afternoon) They rent houses, purchase utilities, buy car tags.... spend money. With every dollar spent, they pay TAX. Yes, they send some money home, but that is their business. I don't criticize my American workers for putting money in a savings account, or going on vacation out of the country (where they spend money in, say, Mexico..) It is disposable income. We withhold all federal payroll taxes and state payroll taxes from all of our employees, including the Mexicans. Will they ever recoup this money? No. The Fed and state keep every penny of it. In my case, they have filled a NEED. I went through 10 American labors in a 6 month period before hiring Mexicans. They have NEVER been late for work, NEVER missed a day of work, and NEVER come in drunk, drugged, or hung over. Oh, and by the way, I pay them the same wage as my American workers. The only drawback is that they rotate out about every 9 months, so with each new one, we have a short learning curve. So I say, let them work here. Give them a work permit number. Require employers to report the number when they are hired. If they don't, fine them into submission. Get rid of the "cash under the table" work. Charge them a fee for applying and for renewal. This is the only feasible solution for our immigrant situation today. There here whether anyone likes it or not, so we need to modify the system to control it. just my .02 > > > Your arguement strikes me like this, lets say the mob controls the > cost of [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > would hardly notice. If they are not needed here why are they needed > other places? |
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