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Homeowner Forum / Construction / March 2005



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Help with judging estimates (Cross-post from alt.home.repair)

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Beantown - 29 Mar 2005 22:43 GMT
Hi there,

I am in the Boston area, and I recently had some contractors look at a
situation in my house, and I would like the general public's opinion
about
the information I have received, so here goes:

We live in a ~105 year old house that has a dip toward the center. You
see, the main beam was (and really still is, save for some adjustable
posts we put there for now) supported only in the center by a brick
column that has shrunk (or has lowered with the floor, as it were).

As a result, we can feel the dip toward the center of the house in all
rooms, but in the back of the house more (apparently there's heavier
stuff there, like the kitchen, which caused just a bit more droop on
that side). There's also a bit of bounce in the floors, basically
limited to the very center between each beam span on either side of the
existing brick column.

What we have been looking to do is to add support columns for the beam
and possibly to jack up the beam to a somewhat more level position than
it is now. My primary concern is not getting things level per se,
because I know I can do that with flooring (although leveling it
somewhat would be great if it's feasible). My bigger concern is to rid
ourselves of the bounce.

One estimate (the most recent) was for about $2900 (or 3200 with some
cosmetics to touch up the brick column that's in unsightly condition).
While talking with the crew, they mentioned that they might need to cut
a small vertical line in the beam over the center column in order to
give it room to squish together as it goes back to level. Although I
know these guys are professionals, I have hestiations about that for a
few reasons:

1. Has anyone ever heard of doing this?? Everything I find in research
suggests that the jacking needs to take place slowly -- not by cuttin
out a slim v-shaped slice and basicly bending it on its hinge back
together!

2. I am convinced in my heart that if I do this, when we go to sell the
place a home inspector will point out this cut in the beam as some sort
of "serious structural issue with the beam" and frighten off potential
buyers.

3. Well, I guess my gut makes me feel like it's quite crazy to allow
someone to cut into the main support for my house, plain and simple!!

Does anyone have any experience with work like this? As for the rest of
the scope of work in the estimate, it included:
* Digging and pouring footing to a depth of up to 4 feet (sounded
really deep to me, but what do I know)
* Making any adjustments to heating duct or other pipe placement that
may need to be rerouted to accomodate the work equipment, etc.
* Manufacturing steel plates to put above the two new columns and to
serve as a shim above the shrunken brick column.
* the other, usual ancillary items

I would love to hear from anyone who has been through a job like mine.
Thanks in advance for your opinions. By the way, if you live in the
Boston area, too, and would like to recommend whoever did your work,
drop me a private line. : )
DanG - 30 Mar 2005 00:41 GMT
It does depend on your time frames.  It took the beam and column
105 years to get to their present position.  You can jack the beam
back up to level in a few hours.  It will push, twist, break
plaster, and get things shoved back to right and you will spend
whatever time it takes to repair any other incidental damage.  In
order to get the main beam to move enough they may need to give it
a saw kerf, but I would sure try without it.

As an alternative:  You could perform the footings and new screw
jack columns, maybe even some extras especially at the brick
column to take the load off of it.  You have never indicated how
deep the sag is in inches.  Crank up the jacks till you hear
things moving (have someone listening at all levels).  Raise the
beam some predetermined set amount, I'm thinking less than an
inch.  Raise the jacks 1/4" or so each month.  The slower you go,
the better for the walls, etc.  You will have jacks in place to
prevent it from getting any worse and take your time raising it.
Once you have it back in position, rebuild the brick column as
required.

One man's opinion.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG  (remove the sevens)
dgriff237@7cox.net

> Hi there,
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
> work,
> drop me a private line. : )
GLT - 30 Mar 2005 03:24 GMT
I've had to raise a foor,due to a contrator leaving a floor that
was...cantilivered...by a fire place...flooring was 3/4 plank. The floor in
a span of approx. 4' had sunk about 1 1/2"...so we poured 2X2' pads,
installed concrete pier's and did a post and beam system to raise the floor
back to where it should have been.  This is in so. cali, and all the joist's
were in good cond.

Granted this was a small section, but there's no reason why it wouldn't
work, IF done properly on a larger floor, of course, you didn't mention how
bad the sagging is...This same post and beam system is what I use on most
deck I build...and they hold up fine..

> It does depend on your time frames.  It took the beam and column
> 105 years to get to their present position.  You can jack the beam
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
> > work,
> > drop me a private line. : )
Phil Scott - 30 Mar 2005 10:36 GMT
> It does depend on your time frames.  It took the beam and column
> 105 years to get to their present position.  You can jack the beam
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> One man's opinion.

The entire house is bent as you suggest.. jacking on the beam
is going to try to stretch the unstretchable and crack plaster
etc.

a saw curf in the beam would of course ruin its stength there
100% unless the cut is spanned by a thick steel U frame with
post directly under it...even then there are structural
issues, stretch on the beam etc.

at 105 years I probably wouldnt do much, maybe half an inch of
jacking and then stabilization and then just the standard
beefing up of floor structure to get rid of bounce.  I sure
wouldnt try to level anything at this point.. Id take your
advice and jack slowly with people listening and at the first
sign of a crack in the plaster Id give it a long hard
thought...floor jacking might not crack the plaster but roof
ridge jacking easily could.

This would be a good job to have a structural engineer or an
old timer architect who has experience with renovating these
old structures look at.

On the cost isssue, with this type of job... thats secondary..
find the right man first.. then pay his price.  The right man
will usually be reasonable in price, usually old as moss...
and offer in depth insight into what the issues are.

Phil Scott

> (top posted for your convenience)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> "Beantown" <beantown_tw@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1112132619.458224.242030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Hi there,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
> > work,
> > drop me a private line. : )
BP - 30 Mar 2005 02:00 GMT
The cut in the beam is over the post, you write, and if the steel plates are
large enough to carry the load from both sides of the (now) new beamS then
it is perfectly acceptable, now and in the future.
Old beams bend and become like the bow of a boat. They want to retain their
U shape, not straighten out. The cut allows the beam to become more
straight.
Sounds like they know what they are talking about. You might want to check
and see if they have a engineer looking at the plan of action.

> Hi there,
>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> Boston area, too, and would like to recommend whoever did your work,
> drop me a private line. : )
eds - 30 Mar 2005 03:43 GMT
I'm remodeling my 120 year old house in the Boston area. I am an Architect
and have done a few old buildings in the last 40 years. We presently have a
3 inch sag to the rear from the central beam. Our beam itself is well
supported and has not sagged, but the joists were only 2x8 @ 16" spanning
13'-4". We will be supporting the joists with new screw-jack columns, beams
and footings. We will NOT be jacking up the floor because of possible damage
to the building. We WILL be leveling the floor by shimming and new
underlayment after bracing. I would try to avoid jacking up the structure to
level it.

BTW if your new footings are within the conditioned area of the building,
they need go only down to firm undisturbed non-organic soil. 4' deep
footings are for exterior use to get below the frost line.
EDS
> The cut in the beam is over the post, you write, and if the steel plates
> are large enough to carry the load from both sides of the (now) new beamS
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>> Boston area, too, and would like to recommend whoever did your work,
>> drop me a private line. : )
AndrewJ - 31 Mar 2005 00:23 GMT
>While talking with the crew, they mentioned that they might need to cut
>a small vertical line in the beam over the center column in order to
>give it room to squish together as it goes back to level.

If replacing part of a beam the cut would always go above the support.
So what It does not matter if they cut part of it and replace one side
or cut and leave it in?
BTW, never plan any work around what a home inspector may or may not
say. The entire profession is questionable at best.

-------------
AJ
Cudaman - 31 Mar 2005 03:39 GMT
After being in the business for over 30 years,
I have had my share of jobs that sound similar to this one.
Jacking up the floor is an option, but depending on how much the floor
has to be raised to be leval is something that has to be taken in
consideration.
Some of the problems that haven't been mentioned are:
Door Openings. After a house settles over a period of time and goes
through several owners, doors get cut down, resized, shaved here, shaved
there.
When you go to jack up the house, these doors begin to jamb shut.
I have also seen windows crack because of there new found locations.
Maybe, you might jack up the floor only half the distance and use some other
method to finish the rest of the leveling.
Sleeper flooring comes to mind, but it can be labor and material intensive.

About the bounce in the flooring-- mid span girders--if this is a basement
situation.
If you have 14' of span from outside wall to center of building, then just
place another
girder half the distance.

only my opinion

good luck

> >While talking with the crew, they mentioned that they might need to cut
> >a small vertical line in the beam over the center column in order to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> -------------
> AJ
Lil' Dave - 31 Mar 2005 10:43 GMT
> >While talking with the crew, they mentioned that they might need to cut
> >a small vertical line in the beam over the center column in order to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> -------------
> AJ

The part you snipped out was concerned with a home inspector's potential
evaluation of a beam that had been cut into.   That can be an issue if
there's not a paper trail.

What they would do is ask for the paperwork and so forth from the homeowner
regarding the beam modification.  The home inspector would then put that,
and check the corresponding permit numbers on that report.  Seller gets
bonus points for addressing a documented structural problem, and to be
expected in a home over a century old.
 
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