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Homeowner Forum / Construction / December 2003



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which stone for facing?

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AskMeNot - 24 Dec 2003 02:42 GMT
Happy Holidays everyone!!

Still trying to zero in on the type of exterior siding to use. Stone is
looking pretty cool. I have been doing some research and the stone most
often is divided into 1-3" and 4-6" thickness. I assumed 1-3" would be
best for facing the Cape Cod. But I thought I better ask to make sure.
Also I'm considering using 1" blue flagstone as the floor covering  for
the kitchen ...any thoughts about this before I make a commitment?

Another question, is there any adjustment I need to make at the soffit
to handle the stone?

Thanks for you thoughts.
Mach Twain - 25 Dec 2003 00:04 GMT
>Happy Holidays everyone!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Thanks for you thoughts.

Some credentials: I was a pretty good stone man ; walls, veneer,
fireplaces and such. IMO, stone is a difficult and expensive material
to use as a thin exterior veneer. If you must go this way, I'd suggest
artificial stone (looks great, and is lighter) over extruded wire
lath. Using real stone as a viable, more expensive, alternative to
brick (4-6 in.) works for me too. Tarpaper, wall ties,  and a good
footer (hopefully integral to the foundation) are essential. Do the
soffit first.

Flagstone is great, but expect anything dropped on it to break.
And it's cold on the feet. Good in summer, bad in winter.

Mach Twain
AskMeNot - 26 Dec 2003 23:03 GMT
>>Happy Holidays everyone!!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Mach Twain

Ok. Thats helpfull. How do you handle the soffit and stone? Also another
thought....would you use thin set to set the flagstone on the kitchen
floor?

Thanks
Js Walker Lazenby Jr - 27 Dec 2003 04:22 GMT
> Happy Holidays everyone!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Thanks for you thoughts.

OK.  Based on your thanks-in-advance (likely to be the only
thanks), here are my thoughts.

Stone is not a facing.

Stone is either the major structural component or a
contributing portion of the structural components or it is a
veneer.  Veneers in an exterior wall are by definition
attached structurally to or hung upon the supporting
structure, although in practice they are some times
vertically self-supporting and tied horizontally to the
principal wall structure.  They are not applied to the wall
like paint.

The primary purpose of veneers, including stone, brick or
tile masonry veneers, etc., is always decorative rather than
structural and nearly always decorative rather than
protective.  Supporting this is veneers are incapable of
even self-support and make no real contribution to
structure.  And, veneers are far more expensive than
alternative protective coatings or surfaces, so are choosen
for their cosmetic effect.

As a veneer and regardless of the veneer pattern, stone
should appear to be structural, that is supporting or
contributing to the support of the structure.  Stone stuck
on various parts of an exterior wall is "not at home" and
"not comfortable" with the building.  Ashlar veneer, as
example, looks like solid, shaped stone that constitutes the
major wall material.  It does not look like a facing or a
"fabric."  So called "Zurian" stone, an abysimal material
stuck on many terrible buildings in the 60's and 70's
doesn't even look like it could be structural.  It is
obviously "stuck on" and should be "struck off."  Most
everyone gets a "fake look" impression of Zurian, but it is
still used.  Whether consciously or not, improperly used
stone or rock facings or veneer on any building are a
conspicuously inappropriate, uncomfortable use of materials.

How thick your stone "facing" is or is not in application to
your Cape Cod is not the question.  Unless, it is a true
component of the wall or, at least, LOOKS like it is a true
component, consistent with the use a real component would
have.  If you only run the stone part way up the wall, say
to the sill level of fenestration, then make sure it is
thick enough to provide a six inch or greater ledge between
the stone and the siding above, so as to look like it
actually belongs there . . . serving more than a cosmetic
purpose.  If it runs full height, make sure it again appears
to be an added thickness, equal to a full wythe plus air
space, apparent at the top below a facing or the soffit and
at its sides adjacent to wood siding or similar, thin
materials.

A "thick" material, such as stone, next to a "thin"
material, such as wood siding (or, even though to a lesser
extent, next to thick but thinner than stone material, such
as brick) should project beyond the thinner material by a
similar thickness.

One to three inches isn't going to look right.  It's going
to look "stuck on."  Go with the thicker material.  (And
don't think that by installing a thin 'return' on the tops
and edges of thin, split stone is going to look better.  It
won't.  It will look even worse.  It will look like you not
only knew no better, but that you did know better but were
too cheap to fake it correctly.)

My thoughts.

Jim
AskMeNot - 27 Dec 2003 22:05 GMT
>>Happy Holidays everyone!!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
> as brick) should project beyond the thinner material by a
> similar thickness.

I was wondering about that since only the front wall will be stone and
the adjacent side walls will be some other siding (TBD).

> One to three inches isn't going to look right.  It's going
> to look "stuck on."  Go with the thicker material.  (And
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jim

Thanks Jim. :-) I do appreciate you and the entire group! I think I will
go with the 4-6" stuff as Mach Twain suggested, and run it to the very
top. If I understand you correctly I will need to adjust the soffit by
the thickness of the stone. Or put another way make it look like the
soffit ends at the stone as if it were the main structual
component....correct? As an aside, the stone will not be the main
structual component.

cheers

Paul
Misterbeets - 27 Dec 2003 23:47 GMT
Go with the thicker material.  (And
> don't think that by installing a thin 'return' on the tops
> and edges of thin, split stone is going to look better.

Or use the thick stone at the return, and the thin elsewhere.
Js Walker Lazenby Jr - 28 Dec 2003 23:27 GMT
> Go with the thicker material.
>> (And
> > don't think that by installing a thin 'return' on the tops
> > and edges of thin, split stone is going to look better.
>
> Or use the thick stone at the return, and the thin elsewhere.

Absolutely, Yes.  But only if you don't have window and door
openings that must be returned.  Very difficult to use the
thicker stone there and still have adequate support for the
facing stone elsewhere.

Jim
Js Walker Lazenby Jr - 28 Dec 2003 23:24 GMT
> >>Happy Holidays everyone!!
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 116 lines]
>
> Paul

If you do decide to use stone, Paul . . .

. . . please keep it "earth bound."  By that I mean keep it
obviously supported by the ground below or an obvious
pedestal effect below.  Do not allow it to be suspended.
And, please do not suspend stone over a window or door
opening without an obvious arch (complete with appropriate
spring, vousiour, keystone, etc.) or, if using steel angles,
use a dissimilar material to simulate a lintel, or use a
concrete lintel.  (I know you aren't going to find a single
stone to span the opening, so I'm not even mentioning that .
. . except parenthetically.)

And, as you say you are only going to use it on the front,
make sure the stone "returns" fully the depth of any
penetrations, including completely back to any door frame,
sash, etc.  And, to really complete the illusion, turn the
corners of the house for 12" or so before starting the other
material, making the stone look quite thick, as it should
reasonably appear, at its edges.  You'll be glad you did.
(I've seem even commercial, monumental buildings with no
return on the front facade's facing material.  Only the
relatively paper-thin edge of the facing material is exposed
. . . often with the attachment medium also exposed.  I'd
certainly fire that "architect!")  Some things are just too
obvious.  Unfortunately, when a homeowner commits such a
design error, it is usually his first attempt, so he doesn't
know better and it becomes obvious only after he has done
the dirty deed.

Jim

Jim
AskMeNot - 29 Dec 2003 00:24 GMT
>>>>Happy Holidays everyone!!
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 254 lines]
> know better and it becomes obvious only after he has done
> the dirty deed.

Jim I'm glad you added your second thoughts. You've pretty much
convinced me to get a real mason. I was going to for the fireplace
anyway. But the couple of window openings, doors, offsets and garage
sounds like far more envolved then I had thought. Now to find a good
mason.....Jim you don't happen to live near the Pa/Md border do you!

Thanks

paul
Js Walker Lazenby Jr - 30 Dec 2003 02:11 GMT
> Jim I'm glad you added your second thoughts. You've pretty much
> convinced me to get a real mason. I was going to for the fireplace
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> paul

I am definitely not a mason, Paul.

Neither the lower case tradesman nor the initial capitalized
fraternity member.

I DO have a thing for the Pa/Md border.

Not many folks are fully aware of the almost unimmaginable
difference impacting a traveler passing from Maryland, south
in to Virginia.  In my case, it is because DC lies between
and provides a transition that extends well into VA.  You
are aware of the tremendous change, but you are not sure
just where it occurs.  (I think somewhere just north of the
Potomac River.)

But, I'll wager all too many folks have experienced the
near-shock of passing from Maryland into Pennsylvania.  This
is more than culture shock.  It is environmental shock.  It
is world-brightening shock.

If you stop quickly after crossing the line (from Md into
Pa) and look back, you could almost swear you could actually
see the line . . . in the dirt.  Well, in the dirt on the
Maryland side, in the grass immediately adjacent to the
north.  What dirt you can see past the trash.  I do not
exagerate.

There is more paint consummed in Pennsylvania in a single
day than all year long in Maryland.  There are more neat,
straight fences in a dozen miles in Pennsylvania than along
all the highways of Maryland.  I could go on.

Maryland has those bright, white marble (or whatever
substitute is used) steps (stoops) with the varnished and
comb grained front doors.  Period.

(I understand the Maryland 500 have some fine homesteads.  I
haven't been privileged to visit either of them.)  (And,
there is a fine facility in the mountains of Maryland.  Used
to be called ShangraLa -- and before that Camp Two -- and
now is called Camp David.  Had something to do with that
transition, but never got to visit.  Never invited.  Thanks,
Ike!)

I do believe the farmlands of Pennsylvania have full-moon
light every night, except maybe one, every month.   And,
everything else, all the accoutrements, to go with the moon.
As much as I enjoy (worship?) the mountains of Virginia,
North Carolina, Tennessee and northern Georgia, I have never
experienced such uplift as I achieve by merely crossing that
line . . . between Maryland and Pennsylvania.

So, Paul, I'm not from the Maryland- Pennsylvania area.  My
family on my father's side were very early pioneers of both
states . . . first Pennsylvania and then Maryland.  (Things
were different back then.  No way you could have determined
which state you were in by just looking around.  The weather
might tell you, however.)  I have lived there sufficiently
in my adult life to appreciate Maryland's special
attributes.  Wouldn't have taken more than a few days, but I
was there lots longer than that.

But, I do remember more than once driving across that state
border.  I will admit, the drive had but a single purpose,
and it was just that . . . to experience the crossing so
that I could gain enough emotional strength to cross back
over to home.

Hope I didn't tread on any Maryland toes.  Just my own
experiences and perceptions.  Nothing personal (that I would
repeat).

Jim
AskMeNot - 30 Dec 2003 23:07 GMT
>>Jim I'm glad you added your second thoughts. You've pretty
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> Jim

I was born and raised and Pa. Now cross the line everyday to make a
living in MD. I appreciate what you said every night.
 
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