which stone for facing?
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AskMeNot - 24 Dec 2003 02:42 GMT Happy Holidays everyone!!
Still trying to zero in on the type of exterior siding to use. Stone is looking pretty cool. I have been doing some research and the stone most often is divided into 1-3" and 4-6" thickness. I assumed 1-3" would be best for facing the Cape Cod. But I thought I better ask to make sure. Also I'm considering using 1" blue flagstone as the floor covering for the kitchen ...any thoughts about this before I make a commitment?
Another question, is there any adjustment I need to make at the soffit to handle the stone?
Thanks for you thoughts.
Mach Twain - 25 Dec 2003 00:04 GMT >Happy Holidays everyone!! > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Thanks for you thoughts. Some credentials: I was a pretty good stone man ; walls, veneer, fireplaces and such. IMO, stone is a difficult and expensive material to use as a thin exterior veneer. If you must go this way, I'd suggest artificial stone (looks great, and is lighter) over extruded wire lath. Using real stone as a viable, more expensive, alternative to brick (4-6 in.) works for me too. Tarpaper, wall ties, and a good footer (hopefully integral to the foundation) are essential. Do the soffit first.
Flagstone is great, but expect anything dropped on it to break. And it's cold on the feet. Good in summer, bad in winter.
Mach Twain
AskMeNot - 26 Dec 2003 23:03 GMT >>Happy Holidays everyone!! >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Mach Twain Ok. Thats helpfull. How do you handle the soffit and stone? Also another thought....would you use thin set to set the flagstone on the kitchen floor?
Thanks
Js Walker Lazenby Jr - 27 Dec 2003 04:22 GMT > Happy Holidays everyone!! > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thanks for you thoughts. OK. Based on your thanks-in-advance (likely to be the only thanks), here are my thoughts.
Stone is not a facing.
Stone is either the major structural component or a contributing portion of the structural components or it is a veneer. Veneers in an exterior wall are by definition attached structurally to or hung upon the supporting structure, although in practice they are some times vertically self-supporting and tied horizontally to the principal wall structure. They are not applied to the wall like paint.
The primary purpose of veneers, including stone, brick or tile masonry veneers, etc., is always decorative rather than structural and nearly always decorative rather than protective. Supporting this is veneers are incapable of even self-support and make no real contribution to structure. And, veneers are far more expensive than alternative protective coatings or surfaces, so are choosen for their cosmetic effect.
As a veneer and regardless of the veneer pattern, stone should appear to be structural, that is supporting or contributing to the support of the structure. Stone stuck on various parts of an exterior wall is "not at home" and "not comfortable" with the building. Ashlar veneer, as example, looks like solid, shaped stone that constitutes the major wall material. It does not look like a facing or a "fabric." So called "Zurian" stone, an abysimal material stuck on many terrible buildings in the 60's and 70's doesn't even look like it could be structural. It is obviously "stuck on" and should be "struck off." Most everyone gets a "fake look" impression of Zurian, but it is still used. Whether consciously or not, improperly used stone or rock facings or veneer on any building are a conspicuously inappropriate, uncomfortable use of materials.
How thick your stone "facing" is or is not in application to your Cape Cod is not the question. Unless, it is a true component of the wall or, at least, LOOKS like it is a true component, consistent with the use a real component would have. If you only run the stone part way up the wall, say to the sill level of fenestration, then make sure it is thick enough to provide a six inch or greater ledge between the stone and the siding above, so as to look like it actually belongs there . . . serving more than a cosmetic purpose. If it runs full height, make sure it again appears to be an added thickness, equal to a full wythe plus air space, apparent at the top below a facing or the soffit and at its sides adjacent to wood siding or similar, thin materials.
A "thick" material, such as stone, next to a "thin" material, such as wood siding (or, even though to a lesser extent, next to thick but thinner than stone material, such as brick) should project beyond the thinner material by a similar thickness.
One to three inches isn't going to look right. It's going to look "stuck on." Go with the thicker material. (And don't think that by installing a thin 'return' on the tops and edges of thin, split stone is going to look better. It won't. It will look even worse. It will look like you not only knew no better, but that you did know better but were too cheap to fake it correctly.)
My thoughts.
Jim
AskMeNot - 27 Dec 2003 22:05 GMT >>Happy Holidays everyone!! >> [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > as brick) should project beyond the thinner material by a > similar thickness. I was wondering about that since only the front wall will be stone and the adjacent side walls will be some other siding (TBD).
> One to three inches isn't going to look right. It's going > to look "stuck on." Go with the thicker material. (And [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jim Thanks Jim. :-) I do appreciate you and the entire group! I think I will go with the 4-6" stuff as Mach Twain suggested, and run it to the very top. If I understand you correctly I will need to adjust the soffit by the thickness of the stone. Or put another way make it look like the soffit ends at the stone as if it were the main structual component....correct? As an aside, the stone will not be the main structual component.
cheers
Paul
Misterbeets - 27 Dec 2003 23:47 GMT Go with the thicker material. (And
> don't think that by installing a thin 'return' on the tops > and edges of thin, split stone is going to look better. Or use the thick stone at the return, and the thin elsewhere.
Js Walker Lazenby Jr - 28 Dec 2003 23:27 GMT > Go with the thicker material. >> (And > > don't think that by installing a thin 'return' on the tops > > and edges of thin, split stone is going to look better. > > Or use the thick stone at the return, and the thin elsewhere. Absolutely, Yes. But only if you don't have window and door openings that must be returned. Very difficult to use the thicker stone there and still have adequate support for the facing stone elsewhere.
Jim
Js Walker Lazenby Jr - 28 Dec 2003 23:24 GMT > >>Happy Holidays everyone!! > >> [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] > > Paul If you do decide to use stone, Paul . . .
. . . please keep it "earth bound." By that I mean keep it obviously supported by the ground below or an obvious pedestal effect below. Do not allow it to be suspended. And, please do not suspend stone over a window or door opening without an obvious arch (complete with appropriate spring, vousiour, keystone, etc.) or, if using steel angles, use a dissimilar material to simulate a lintel, or use a concrete lintel. (I know you aren't going to find a single stone to span the opening, so I'm not even mentioning that . . . except parenthetically.)
And, as you say you are only going to use it on the front, make sure the stone "returns" fully the depth of any penetrations, including completely back to any door frame, sash, etc. And, to really complete the illusion, turn the corners of the house for 12" or so before starting the other material, making the stone look quite thick, as it should reasonably appear, at its edges. You'll be glad you did. (I've seem even commercial, monumental buildings with no return on the front facade's facing material. Only the relatively paper-thin edge of the facing material is exposed . . . often with the attachment medium also exposed. I'd certainly fire that "architect!") Some things are just too obvious. Unfortunately, when a homeowner commits such a design error, it is usually his first attempt, so he doesn't know better and it becomes obvious only after he has done the dirty deed.
Jim
Jim
AskMeNot - 29 Dec 2003 00:24 GMT >>>>Happy Holidays everyone!! >>>> [quoted text clipped - 254 lines] > know better and it becomes obvious only after he has done > the dirty deed. Jim I'm glad you added your second thoughts. You've pretty much convinced me to get a real mason. I was going to for the fireplace anyway. But the couple of window openings, doors, offsets and garage sounds like far more envolved then I had thought. Now to find a good mason.....Jim you don't happen to live near the Pa/Md border do you!
Thanks
paul
Js Walker Lazenby Jr - 30 Dec 2003 02:11 GMT > Jim I'm glad you added your second thoughts. You've pretty much > convinced me to get a real mason. I was going to for the fireplace [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > paul I am definitely not a mason, Paul.
Neither the lower case tradesman nor the initial capitalized fraternity member.
I DO have a thing for the Pa/Md border.
Not many folks are fully aware of the almost unimmaginable difference impacting a traveler passing from Maryland, south in to Virginia. In my case, it is because DC lies between and provides a transition that extends well into VA. You are aware of the tremendous change, but you are not sure just where it occurs. (I think somewhere just north of the Potomac River.)
But, I'll wager all too many folks have experienced the near-shock of passing from Maryland into Pennsylvania. This is more than culture shock. It is environmental shock. It is world-brightening shock.
If you stop quickly after crossing the line (from Md into Pa) and look back, you could almost swear you could actually see the line . . . in the dirt. Well, in the dirt on the Maryland side, in the grass immediately adjacent to the north. What dirt you can see past the trash. I do not exagerate.
There is more paint consummed in Pennsylvania in a single day than all year long in Maryland. There are more neat, straight fences in a dozen miles in Pennsylvania than along all the highways of Maryland. I could go on.
Maryland has those bright, white marble (or whatever substitute is used) steps (stoops) with the varnished and comb grained front doors. Period.
(I understand the Maryland 500 have some fine homesteads. I haven't been privileged to visit either of them.) (And, there is a fine facility in the mountains of Maryland. Used to be called ShangraLa -- and before that Camp Two -- and now is called Camp David. Had something to do with that transition, but never got to visit. Never invited. Thanks, Ike!)
I do believe the farmlands of Pennsylvania have full-moon light every night, except maybe one, every month. And, everything else, all the accoutrements, to go with the moon. As much as I enjoy (worship?) the mountains of Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and northern Georgia, I have never experienced such uplift as I achieve by merely crossing that line . . . between Maryland and Pennsylvania.
So, Paul, I'm not from the Maryland- Pennsylvania area. My family on my father's side were very early pioneers of both states . . . first Pennsylvania and then Maryland. (Things were different back then. No way you could have determined which state you were in by just looking around. The weather might tell you, however.) I have lived there sufficiently in my adult life to appreciate Maryland's special attributes. Wouldn't have taken more than a few days, but I was there lots longer than that.
But, I do remember more than once driving across that state border. I will admit, the drive had but a single purpose, and it was just that . . . to experience the crossing so that I could gain enough emotional strength to cross back over to home.
Hope I didn't tread on any Maryland toes. Just my own experiences and perceptions. Nothing personal (that I would repeat).
Jim
AskMeNot - 30 Dec 2003 23:07 GMT >>Jim I'm glad you added your second thoughts. You've pretty > [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > Jim I was born and raised and Pa. Now cross the line everyday to make a living in MD. I appreciate what you said every night.
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