 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsGeneralRural LivingHome AutomationSecurity AlarmsConstructionRepairPlumbingCleaningPest ControlLawn and Garden |
Homeowner Forum / Cleaning / January 2005Fill washer then add laundry????
I wondered why the instructions on every washer I've seen is to fill the washer with water, THEN add the dirty laundry. So, I called Whirlpool. They told me that the only way to get the correct amount of water in the machine is to fill it first. If you put the clothes in first, then they take up space that should be taken up by water. I then asked them if after the wash cycle finishes and the dirty water drains, and it goes through a spin cycle, should I then remove all the clothes, allow the machine to fill with the correct amount of rinse water, and then add the clothes for rinsing. They told me that no one had ever asked this question before. They had no answer. On Mon 03 Jan 2005 10:00:55a, TOM KAN PA tittered and giggled, and giggled and tittered, and finally blurted out... > I wondered why the instructions on every washer I've seen is to fill the > washer with water, THEN add the dirty laundry. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > They told me that no one had ever asked this question before. > They had no answer. Probably because once the clothes have been wet in the wash cycle and spun to eliminate the water, they are (1) still somewhat wet, and (2) considerably compressed compared to their dry state, thus allowing more water into the tub. Just my WAG Wayne > I wondered why the instructions on every washer I've seen is to fill the washer > with water, THEN add the dirty laundry. It's the other way around with mine. Put the washing in, then the water goes in after, the amount of water depends on the type of load and absorbency of articles being washed. Rinsing is done until the water runs clear so I choose what type of rinse, how many rinses depending on how dirty or soapy the water is. On Mon 03 Jan 2005 01:15:22p, Sweep tittered and giggled, and giggled and tittered, and finally blurted out... >> I wondered why the instructions on every washer I've seen is to fill >> the washer with water, THEN add the dirty laundry. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > runs clear so I choose what type of rinse, how many rinses depending on > how dirty or soapy the water is. Curious... How does the washer determine when the water runs clear? Also, how does it determine the number of rinses? Or, are you saying that you determine that and run various cycles accordingly? Wayne > On Mon 03 Jan 2005 01:15:22p, Sweep tittered and giggled, and giggled and > tittered, and finally blurted out... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Or, are you saying that you determine that and run various cycles > accordingly? yeah, sort of. It does a standard 2 or 3 rinse depending on wash program and then there's an 'extra rinses' button. If I'm still not satisfied then I do the 'rinse only' cycle on top. On Mon 03 Jan 2005 07:25:01p, Sweep tittered and giggled, and giggled and tittered, and finally blurted out... >> On Mon 03 Jan 2005 01:15:22p, Sweep tittered and giggled, and giggled >> and tittered, and finally blurted out... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > program and then there's an 'extra rinses' button. If I'm still not > satisfied then I do the 'rinse only' cycle on top. Oh, okay. Basically like my machine. I also do extra rinses 'til clear. Cheers, Wayne >I wondered why the instructions on every washer I've seen is to fill the washer >with water, THEN add the dirty laundry. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >They told me that no one had ever asked this question before. >They had no answer. It makes no sense to wait for the washer to fill. If so, you would have to deal with the water displacement, plus you lose soaking time. I fill my washer 1 or 2", add soap, stir to dissolve the soap, then add clothes as the washer continues to fill. Putting soap directly onto clothing may damage some fabrics. I would think adding soap after the washer begins to agitate is another good option. Also, adding bleach to laundry should only be done when the clothes are thoroughly wet and in motion. > >I wondered why the instructions on every washer I've seen is to fill the washer > >with water, THEN add the dirty laundry. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > adding bleach to laundry should only be done when the clothes are > thoroughly wet and in motion. I'd like to know what modern washer has instructions to fill the tub before adding clothes. My sister bought a Whirlpool toploader under the Kenmore label about ten years ago. The book said to add the clothes before the water. The book said this was the way to measure a load of clothes. The book explained that it's best to wash as big a load as possible while leaving the items room to move freely in the water. It said if you put in as many clothes as the basket would hold dry without pushing any down, that was a full load. It's not as easy to measure a full load if you add the water first. Besides, the laundry will change the water level by an amount that will depend on the kind of fabrics. Meanwhile, you have to wait for the tub to fill. That washer had a dispenser in which hot water would dissolve soap powder at the proper time. Sincerely, Choreboy Considering that the water level in a washing machine is controlled by a water level switch and associated level setting control if installed. Whether you put the clothes in first or last would not affect the water level to any appreciable amount. Putting the clothes in first would mean the water shuts off at the predetermined water level. Putting them in last, would not normally exceed the high water overflow level. Some of these water level sensors work by pressure in a closed column, which means your water level after filling could vary considerably depending upon the barametric pressure at the time the unit was filling and closed off the sensor column so it could make its measurement. By the same token, some work totally on a fill time factor. If your line pressure is 30 psi instead of the nominal 60 psi you may end up having to use higher water level settings to get the right amount of water in the drum. TTUL Gary << If your line pressure is 30 psi instead of the nominal 60 psi you may end up having to use higher water level settings to get the right amount of water in the drum. >> ____Reply Separator_____ Gary, what is the reccomended water line pressure? I'm running around 80 psi. My neighbor says this is a bit high, he'd set the regulator to about 60. I believe when the township changed the meter, they checked and set the regulator. tomkanpa@aol.comic (TOM KAN PA) verbositized: >Gary, what is the reccomended water line pressure? I'm running around 80 psi. >My neighbor says this is a bit high, he'd set the regulator to about 60. >I believe when the township changed the meter, they checked and set the >regulator. Most solenoid valves and other fill valves are designed for a 60psi nominal water pressure! You will find older cities that still have lead pipe service lines often keep their mainline water pressure down around 30psi, so you don't see many regulators in use. Whereas almost all service areas since the 1940's have fairly high water pressure, between 80 and 120 psi in the mains, so the homes serviced by these higher pressure lines normally have regulators to cut the pressure back to 60psi. In the 25+ years I was in construction, every home I worked in had a pressure regulator installed, set at 60psi, except for one single outdoor faucet, whichever was closest to the driveway, which bypassed the regulator so whatever supply pressure was available, was available at this one single faucet. Very few homes had more than one of the outdoor faucets bypassing the regulator. Running your regulator over the nominal 60psi setting can cause premature failure of solenoid valves, such as in washing machines, ice makers, water dispensers, etc. and can cause your fill valve in the water closet to fail prematurely also or even prevent it from shutting completely off. Washerless faucets (cartridge faucets) will wear out much quicker also. Some low end single handle faucets won't even shut off at all if the psi is much over the nominal 60psi it was designed for. TTUL Gary > By the same token, some work totally on a fill time factor. > If your line pressure is 30 psi instead of the nominal 60 psi you may [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > TTUL > Gary What washing machine fills the tub strictly by timing? There's a vast difference in flow depending on pipe size, pipe material, pressure at the mains, and other household water demands. Sincerely, Choreboy Hi Choreboy Not necessarily. Restrictive tubing is used that allows for a plus or minus 20% variance in line pressure. Water pressure IS like horsepower to a certain extent. The higher the pressure, the greater amount of water that will pass through a restriction. However, using a LONG tube as the restrictor (instead of plate) brings line resistance into the equasion. Which helps balance the water flow more accurately against fluctuating line pressures. Take your refrigerator ice maker as an example. It's fill is determined ONLY by a time factor. In older cities where line pressure is only 30psi, the ice maker timer needs to be increased in order for the tray to fill to the proper level, else you get very tiny ice units. Using pressure sensors in washing machines to determine the fill level is a fairly new advancement in their design. Early washing machines used only the timer and overflows to control the water level. These pressure sensors are not very accurate either! Depending upon the barometric pressure at the time you are filling your washing machine, the water level can vary considerably. As well as your location above sea level. Take two identical washing machines and send one to Denver and one to Miami and you will have a 2 inch water level difference in the tub at the same barometric pressure reading. TTUL Gary > Restrictive tubing is used that allows for a plus or minus 20% > variance in line pressure. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > line resistance into the equasion. Which helps balance the water flow > more accurately against fluctuating line pressures. So if you get scalded in the shower when somebody flushes, you can solve the problem by replacing your 3/4" pipe with 1/2" pipe? > These pressure sensors are not very accurate either! > Depending upon the barometric pressure at the time you are filling > your washing machine, the water level can vary considerably. As well > as your location above sea level. Really? Barometric pressure doesn't vary considerably unless you fill your tub in the eye of a hurricane. > Take two identical washing machines and send one to Denver and one to > Miami and you will have a 2 inch water level difference in the tub at Who are you kidding? The difference will be a mile, not two inches! > the same barometric pressure reading. Who are you kidding? In Denver barometric pressure is about 630mm. In Miami it's about 760. Sincerely Choreboy Choreboy <choreREMOVEboy@localnet.com> verbositized: >So if you get scalded in the shower when somebody flushes, you can solve >the problem by replacing your 3/4" pipe with 1/2" pipe? No, you fix the problem by installing a temperature controlled shower valve regulator. Also: The supply plumbing should have been installed correctly in the first place and you wouldn't have this problem. >Really? Barometric pressure doesn't vary considerably unless you fill >your tub in the eye of a hurricane. At sea level barometric pressure is between 950 and 1050 hPa. Here is a basic hydrostatics equation: Height Difference = dz Which corresponds to vertical pressure difference = dp Accelration of gravity = g and Air Density = p Therefore dp=-gpdz >Who are you kidding? The difference will be a mile, not two inches! Elevation difference would be a mile, but not barometric pressure difference. >Who are you kidding? In Denver barometric pressure is about 630mm. In >Miami it's about 760. WRONG! You're only showing a variance of 130mm If the barometric pressure in Denver is 800hPa it would be OVER 1000hPa in Miami, excluding weather conditions. At sea level it would be 1013hPa. In Hg if Miami is 30, Denver would be 25, under the same weather conditions. You don't fly a plane do you! Altimeters work on barometric pressure also. If you don't make the weather adjustment to your Altimeter, you could go SPLAT real easily! TTUL Gary > Choreboy <choreREMOVEboy@localnet.com> verbositized: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No, you fix the problem by installing a temperature controlled shower > valve regulator. But you said, "However, using a LONG tube as the restrictor (instead of plate) brings line resistance into the equasion. Which helps balance the water flow more accurately against fluctuating line pressures." Doesn't that mean if I used narrow pipes my shower will stay about the same when somebody flushes? > Also: The supply plumbing should have been installed correctly in the > first place and you wouldn't have this problem. Flame war! > >Really? Barometric pressure doesn't vary considerably unless you fill > >your tub in the eye of a hurricane. > > At sea level barometric pressure is between 950 and 1050 hPa. Those are the limits of a normal barometer. That drop to 950 is what I mean by the eye of a hurricane. > Here is a basic hydrostatics equation: > Height Difference = dz [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Therefore dp=-gpdz What does that have to do with the pressure on a shutoff valve? > >Who are you kidding? The difference will be a mile, not two inches! > > Elevation difference would be a mile, but not barometric pressure > difference. But you said, "Take two identical washing machines and send one to Denver and one to Miami and you will have a 2 inch water level difference in the tub at the same barometric pressure reading." The water level in the washer in Denver will be a mile higher than the water in the washer in Miami. > >Who are you kidding? In Denver barometric pressure is about 630mm. In > >Miami it's about 760. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 1000hPa in Miami, excluding weather conditions. At sea level it would > be 1013hPa. It might go down to 800 in Denver if they had a hurricane. > In Hg if Miami is 30, Denver would be 25, under the same weather > conditions. I said 630mm. That's 24.8". What are you disputing? > You don't fly a plane do you! > > Altimeters work on barometric pressure also. > If you don't make the weather adjustment to your Altimeter, you could > go SPLAT real easily! I wouldn't have to adjust my altimeter if barometric pressure were the same in both places as you said above. Sorry I emailed you. It's my newsreader. Sincerely, Choreboy Choreboy <choreREMOVEboy@localnet.com> verbositized: >But you said, >"However, using a LONG tube as the restrictor (instead of plate) brings [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Doesn't that mean if I used narrow pipes my shower will stay about the >same when somebody flushes? Well, if the 1/2 inch pipe was long enough that the internal resistance would overcome the fluctuating pressure to enough of a percentage of difference, it could work. >Flame war! Not at all! I've seen many homes where the cold water supply was very short (low resistance) and the hot water supply was very long (higher resistance) and even some where all the cold water was in 3/4 inch and the hot in 1/2 inch tubing. If the length of the cold water tube to the shower is the same length as the cold water tube to the hot water heater and the hot water tube to the shower, you should never notice that someone flushed a toilet. The problem that causes this most often is the cold water tube is tapped ahead of the shower to feed the toilet. In other words, only one cold water supply line feeds the entire bathroom. In all of the homes I ever installed supply plumbing in. We either fed the shower completely independent of any other fixtures in the home using equidistant supply feeds, or if that was not possible, used a pressure balancing device on the supply lines to the shower, or in homes where we did not replace the supply piping we used a thermostatic shower valve to control the temperature. Using equidistant piping is the cheapest way to go though. >Those are the limits of a normal barometer. That drop to 950 is what I >mean by the eye of a hurricane. I understood what you meant! >What does that have to do with the pressure on a shutoff valve? A whole lot, that's how the valve works. >But you said, >"Take two identical washing machines and send one to Denver and one to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >The water level in the washer in Denver will be a mile higher than the >water in the washer in Miami. Play on words, eh! The "water level IN the tub" would have a 2 inch variance, when measured from the rim of the tub down to the water level. There, is that better. >I said 630mm. That's 24.8". What are you disputing? The variance between your two figures. >I wouldn't have to adjust my altimeter if barometric pressure were the >same in both places as you said above. That's right! FWIW: I'm in the packaging business. We use pressure sensitive valves to control the fluid level in the bottles we package. We cannot use optical controlled valves because the bottles are opaque. Although we could use valves that are controlled by weight sensors the bottle is sitting on, they would have to be changed many times a day for the different formula's that are packaged into the same size bottles. Using pressure sensitive fill-valves, the density or specific gravity of the product has little to no bearing on the fill level. However, a slight change in barometric pressure can make a big difference in the fill level. Fortunately, a barometer is linked to the fill valves, and once calibrated for our elevation and to weather conditions, the fill valves settings change with the barometric pressure so the bottles all fill to the proper level. Because we are in a closed building, in a sense like a clean room, where the room is maintained at a constant pressure, we have very few problems using pressure sensitive fill-valves. However, if we move the machines to a room that does not have a controlled air pressure, where opening and closing doors allows the prevailing wind outside to increase or decrease the pressure in the room, we might have all kinds of problems with pressure sensative fill-valves. Don't know, we've always kept the filling rooms at a specific pressure using highly filtered input air into the room. And the doorways are also enclosed units with two doors. You cannot open the inside door until the outside door closes and the air pressure stabalizes. Unless of course the fire alarm is engaged, then all doors open without restriction or control. TTUL Gary > Choreboy <choreREMOVEboy@localnet.com> verbositized: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > resistance would overcome the fluctuating pressure to enough of a > percentage of difference, it could work. Won't the flow still be proportional to pressure? > >Those are the limits of a normal barometer. That drop to 950 is what I > >mean by the eye of a hurricane. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > measured from the rim of the tub down to the water level. > There, is that better. Why would the water level in the tub be any different? You said the barometric pressure was the same in both places. Let's talk about normal barometric variation. Half a PSI is 13.84" of fresh water, so I guess a switch operates in that range. The water in the tub will be 13.84" above the level in the tube to generate that pressure. At normal sea-level pressure, the prssure from that water will compress air 3.29%. If the air in the switch and tube amounts to the volume of a 20" tube, the pressure will raise the water in the tube 0.658" above the bottom. So the level in the tub will be 14.498" above the bottom of the tube. On a typical low-pressure day when pressure is down by 10 mb, that 1/2 psi will compress air 3.32%. The water in the tube will be 0.664" above the bottom. The level in the tub will be 14.504" above the bottom of the tube, or 0.006" above the level at average barometric pressure. Now lets tale the washer to Denver, where you say the normal barometric pressure is 25" of mercury. Putting 1/2 PSI on the switch will require compressing that air 4%, or 0.8" in a 20" tube. The water level will be 14.64" above the bottom of the tube, or 0.142" above the livel in Miami. Where's the rest of your 2" variance? > >I said 630mm. That's 24.8". What are you disputing? > The variance between your two figures. What two figures? Sincerely, Choreboy Choreboy <choreREMOVEboy@localnet.com> verbositized: >Won't the flow still be proportional to pressure? Yes but at a percentage change to the pressure due to the resistance. A pressure change at the input end of 50% would only result in a flow rate change of perhaps 5% at the output end. >Why would the water level in the tub be any different? You said the >barometric pressure was the same in both places. Not actually, I said 'adjusted to weather'. The TRUE barometric pressure between sea level and a mile high would be quite different due to altitude. Weather conditions also affect barometric pressure. For a fair comparison, the barometric pressure variance due to weather conditions need to be adjusted for the same conditions. >Let's talk about normal barometric variation. Half a PSI is 13.84" of >fresh water, so I guess a switch operates in that range. The water in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >14.64" above the bottom of the tube, or 0.142" above the livel in Miami. > Where's the rest of your 2" variance? Very Good Choreboy! You have done an excellent job of showing the "Atmospheric" water level difference between sea level and a mile high. Now let's get into hydraulics using Pascal's Principle! You might even want to consider Boyles Law as well. How about the density of water at a mile high vs sea level? And let's not forget the resistance of the diaphragm in the dome of the pressure sensor. Include Archimedes' Principle. In other words, there are a whole lot of forces called into play here, not just the effects of the atmospheric difference alone. We all know temperature plays a role in the weight of water! At Sea Level water weighs 62.416 lbs/cu.ft. @ 32 degrees F and only 61.998 lbs/cu.ft. @ 100 degrees F. However, water density changes as elevation is increased also. At Sea level, 1 gallon of water at pH 7 weighs 8.33 lbs while at an elevation of 1 mile water at pH 7 at the same temperature weighs only 8.26 lbs/gal. Therefore if you wanted to add 20 gallons of water to your washing machine going by a weight/pressure measurement device that is set at Sea Level, you would have 1.4 pound error in the calculation of the water level in the container. Enough to throw the solenoid valve control switch far enough off that roughly 2 inches more of water would be found in the drum of the washing machine. TTUL Gary > Choreboy <choreREMOVEboy@localnet.com> verbositized: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > A pressure change at the input end of 50% would only result in a flow > rate change of perhaps 5% at the output end. P = 3.25*10^7Q^2fL/d^5 where P is pressure loss in bars D is bore in mm Q is flow in liters/sec f is coefficient of friction L is length in meters No matter what the diameter in length, increasing pressure 50% will increase flow 22% decreasing pressure 50% will decrease flow 29% > >Why would the water level in the tub be any different? You said the > >barometric pressure was the same in both places. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > variance due to weather conditions need to be adjusted for the same > conditions. In what forum did you say 'adjusted to weather'? Here's what you said here: "Take two identical washing machines and send one to Denver and one to Miami and you will have a 2 inch water level difference in the tub at the same barometric pressure reading." > >Let's talk about normal barometric variation. Half a PSI is 13.84" of > >fresh water, so I guess a switch operates in that range. The water in [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You have done an excellent job of showing the "Atmospheric" water > level difference between sea level and a mile high. What's atmospheric water level? > Now let's get into hydraulics using Pascal's Principle! Why? that's about confined fluids. Don't you want your laundry to slosh? > You might even want to consider Boyles Law as well. I already did. That's why the water in the tube will rise above the bottom. > How about the density of water at a mile high vs sea level? If you wish. > And let's not forget the resistance of the diaphragm in the dome of > the pressure sensor. I already did. The switch closes at a certain pressure. > Include Archimedes' Principle. Why? > In other words, there are a whole lot of forces called into play here, > not just the effects of the atmospheric difference alone. But isn't atmospheric difference the issue you raised? > We all know temperature plays a role in the weight of water! > At Sea Level water weighs 62.416 lbs/cu.ft. @ 32 degrees F and only > 61.998 lbs/cu.ft. @ 100 degrees F. Who does laundry in ice or boiling water? Terrorists in caves in Afghanistan? > However, water density changes as elevation is increased also. > At Sea level, 1 gallon of water at pH 7 weighs 8.33 lbs while at an [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > control switch far enough off that roughly 2 inches more of water > would be found in the drum of the washing machine. Do you propose setting the water level by weighing the tub? It sounds good to me. 1.4 pounds out of 166.6 is less than 1%. At 8.33 pounds per gallon 1/2 psi would be 13.86" of water. At 8.26, 1/2 psi would be 13.98" So the water level would be 1/8" higher in Denver. Sincerely, Choreboy Hi Choreboy Excellent work! You KNOW your stuff..... I AGREE with your calculations also! Good Work my friend!!!!! It also proves that one should not take my off the cuff remarks and determinations as being accurate without proving it to themselves first. I admire you Choreboy! TTUL Gary > Hi Choreboy > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > TTUL > Gary Now you've done it! Mrs. Bonk will be jealous and Choreboy will think you're flaming him.  SignatureBest Regards, Lloyd Hi Lloyd I feel Choreboy earned the kudo's! Not to often does somebody beat me at my own game, hi hi..... TTUL Gary Lloyd Randall <broth@eels.net> verbositized: >> Hi Choreboy >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Now you've done it! Mrs. Bonk will be jealous and Choreboy will think >you're flaming him. > Hi Lloyd > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Now you've done it! Mrs. Bonk will be jealous and Choreboy will think > >you're flaming him. Hello boys. I have a problem over in alt.cooking-chat. I'm wondering if it's a chemical accident thing I'm looking at or maybe MI5 have got into my larder. If any of you or anyone else could pop over and help me out I would be eternally grateful. You three are always such dears. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.