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Homeowner Forum / Home Automation / April 2008X10 Controller Oddness?
I am still somewhat new to all this so pardon the newbie questions... I have 2 manual controllers, a CMA11, a number of modules (light and applicance), and a couple switches (XPS3 alone and with XPSS or WS14A) installed in my house. Generally, these work well and as expected. However, I am trying to debug an occasional issue so I am running my ActiveHome (v 1.3) connected to my CMA11 and watching the communications log. In so doing, I am using my manual controllers - an MC460 and a Radio Shack mini controller timer - to turn units on and off. When I do this, I do not see any activity in the communications log for the device which is supposed to be controlled (B 1-4). Instead, I always see an M13 followed by an M All Units Off with each controller action (both off and on actions). This seems odd to me: (a) Why don't I see something in the log for the B1 device I am turning on and off? The unit does indeed go on/off. (b) Why am I seeing any activity on the M house code when all the controllers are set to B? I must be missing something obvious. Thanks, David I have recently installed two XPS3 switches. One - inside my garage - has a XPSS (WS14A) companion installed and controls my interior garage lights (both incandescent and fluorescent). The other is stand-alone and controls the lights on the garage's exterior (incandescent only). I also have a mini controller (MC460) plugged into an outlet inside the garage in a location where there are no switches so I can operate both interior and exterior lights. Finally, I have my computer connected to a CM11A running ActiveHome (1.3x). I am using this only for test purposes right now. So here are the issues: (a) It seems that the mini controller can ALWAYS turn the interior lights on (B5) but it has difficulty turning them off sometimes. When this happens, repeated attempts sometimes work - but not always. (b) I find the same as (a) when using ActiveHome and the CM11A to control the interior garage lights (B5). (c) Neither the mini controller or CM11A seem to have any problems with the stand-alone XPS3 for the exterior lights (B6). They appear to go on/off first time, every time. (d) I have also noted that the interior garage lights sometimes (while I was in the garage) turn themselves off. This auto-off thing is rare but it has happened twice that I have noticed (maybe more not noticed). My first thought is that the interior XPS3 is faulty (or maybe the companion) since the controller issue seems limited to that switch AND because that switch does the weird auto-off thing. But the interior lights ALWAYS seem to respond when either the XPS3 or XPSS is pressed directly an the controllers always are able to turn them on. So I am not really sure I can blame them. That would seem to saddle the problem with the controllers. But I'd think it very unlikely that BOTH controllers are somehow bad. And they both work fine on the exterior lights (and other devices). Plus, they do turn the interior lights ON first time, every time. Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks Do you have a coupler or repeater installed in the breaker panel or nearby? Without at least a coupler you cannot expect reliable operation. Best Bet (by far): buy and install an XTB-IIR from Jeff Volp http://jeffvolp.home.att.net/xtb_files.htm. It is by far the best X10 problem solver available. Second Choice and not nearly as good: Get a plug in BoosterLinc from www.smarthome.com that plugs into your 220v dryer outlet. > I have recently installed two XPS3 switches. One - inside my garage - > has a XPSS (WS14A) companion installed and controls my interior garage [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Thanks Thanks for the response Bruce. I had not heard of the XTB units. But in my old house I had a SmartHome SignalLinc (no booster) in my dryer outlet. It will not fit my dryer in the new house though (and there is not enough room behind to fit). If I understand the SignalLinc and BoosterLinc operation, they both are attempting to create a better bridge across the two sides of my electric panel so that signals can pass more easily (the booster adds some form of signal amplification). Is this correct and true also of Jeff's units? I have not checked yet to see if the garage interior light circuit and the circuits having the controllers are on different sides of the panel. If they turn out to be on the SAME side, what sort of improvement might I expect from such a unit as Jeff's? Thanks. > Do you have a coupler or repeater installed in the breaker panel or > nearby? Without at least a coupler you cannot expect reliable [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> >> Thanks I have recently installed an XPSS/XPS3 combination for my interior garage lights. Among the myriad of questions/issues I have been having, I note the following which is not really that important but still a mystery: When I turn on the lights via either the XPS3 master switch or the XPSS slave switch, I see an LED light up on the XPS3. However, although there seems to be a similar LED in the XPSS, I never see it come on. Other than this (and the occasional automatic lights turning off) the switches seem to be working correctly. Does this indicate that I hosed-up the wiring? Or is that not really an LED in the XPSS (the manual <http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2208ph.pdf> implies that it is)? Or is it just that the LED in the XPSS is not working? Thanks David, Your assumptions about the SignalLinc & Booster are correct. The Booster is a repeater and the Coupler is a passive connection. Try turning on your oven to see if control is any better - the oven acts like a passive bridge. However, in today's electrical environment, which was not anticipated when X10 was invented in the 70's, there is bound to be noise and other signal sucking gremlins scattered about. The Booster helps by repeating the signal at about 5 volts but Jeff's unit boosts it 20 volts which blasts through just about whatever noise would be there. The XTB only sends to one side of the line but with a coupler will deliver a good signal to the other side as well. However, the XTB-IIR is the star of the show and puts the signal on both sides of the line. Given that you are using the lower end X10 stuff (even the PRO stuff is lower end) without AGC and/or Intellisense I would get the XTB-IIR. I promise you it will save you hours of frustration! As for the LED on the slave, IIRC it does nothing. > Thanks for the response Bruce. I had not heard of the XTB units. But > in my old house I had a SmartHome SignalLinc (no booster) in my dryer [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >>> >>> Thanks > David, > Your assumptions about the SignalLinc & Booster are correct. The Booster > is a repeater and the Coupler is a passive connection. Try turning on > your oven to see if control is any better - the oven acts like a passive > bridge. Thanks Bruce, I tried turning on the oven and that seems to make no difference. I also tried turning on my 240V shop heater in the garage to see. Again, no difference. I will try my dryer too but I suspect that I will get the same result. So it looks like an amplifier along with a bridge will be required. >> David, >> Your assumptions about the SignalLinc & Booster are correct. The [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > So it looks like an amplifier along with a bridge will be required. You could also try X10's recommendation which is a .01mfd 600vdc capacitor across the two legs as a cheapie coupler but the benefit may be limited and the capacitor may explode (guess how I know that). The expense of installing a 220 outlet should be no more than an hour of an electrician's time, particularly if it's located next to the panel. You might also be able to easily do it by your shop heater. As for Bill's recommendation to simply dump your X10 stuff, I dumped most of mine before the XTB was available in favor of Insteon. Insteon works very well and is dual mode with X10 which makes transitioning easier. However, now that the XTB is available, I put all the old X10 stuff in my second home and reliability is equal to Insteon so far. Had the XTB-IIR been available before I bought the Insteon stuff I wouldn't have had to change. I still use an XTB-IIR with the combined Insteon/X10 installation at my primary home. >>> David, >>> Your assumptions about the SignalLinc & Booster are correct. The [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > have had to change. I still use an XTB-IIR with the combined > Insteon/X10 installation at my primary home. Thanks Bruce but I think I will pass on the exploding capacitor. I have enough worries already :-). I have also tested my setup with the dryer running and see no improvement that way either. So I guess that the coupler/repeater will be required. There is one more cheapo alternative I might try though. Since the garage interior lights and outlets are on different power supplies and my testing has shown that the mini controller works from a different location that is on the same supply as the lights, I could just move the garage outlets to a different breaker that is on the same side as the lights. This might work because my other stuff seems to work fine. >>>> David, >>>> Your assumptions about the SignalLinc & Booster are correct. The [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > the garage outlets to a different breaker that is on the same side as > the lights. This might work because my other stuff seems to work fine. That may work for awhile but you risk throwing off the balancing in your panel. With the same effort you could add the 220v outlet and be done with it. "David White" <whitedavidp@fastmail.us> wrote in message <stuff snipped> > more cheapo alternative I might try though. Since the > garage interior lights and outlets are on different power supplies and > my testing has shown that the mini controller works from a different > location that is on the same supply as the lights, I could just move the > garage outlets to a different breaker that is on the same side as the > lights. This might work because my other stuff seems to work fine. I find that once you have a marginal area where one phase doesn't reach another, it's only a matter of time before that area spreads and others appear. It may be a cell phone charger, a new laptop, a CFL bulb or some other demon, but eventually, you'll plug something in that kills the X-10 signal. It always seems to happen when you're short of time to chase down the problem, too. The stock X-10 five to ten volt signal is just not enough "oomph" to power through the clogged electrical "streets" of a modern house anymore. I chased my tail for years doing exactly what you're doing - finding connection paths that seem to work for a while. I had a good excuse though, because Jeff had not yet created the XTB-IIR. My experience is that X-10 now works as well as it did in the early 80's when there were few or no switch mode power supplies in general use. Sorry to sound as strident as a reformed smoker looking for converts, but I wasted a lot of time and money trying to keep one step ahead of the X-10 demons before I installed the XTB and killed them all. Very high SAF, too, once the installation was complete. I understand the price issue, though. Only you can make the final call about how much system reliability is worth. For me, it was falling down the stairs when a motion controlled X-10 light went on and then off as I was descending very quickly. I had been using multiple transceivers on alternate phases to compensate for lack of even a passive coupler but that turned out to be an extraordinarily bad workaround. I've always felt the need to futz with the main breaker panel to achieve maximum performance was a real inhibition to HA growth (which was mainly X-10) for the last 20 years. I hope Z-wave and some other protocols truly kill the panel beast. I'm not sure what I would do at your stage. Obviously I didn't do what I am preaching now and have a nearly $300 power line signal analyzer to prove it! (-: I kept avoiding the circuit box solution for a variety of reasons, the lack of an XTB-IIR among them. It sounds like it would be pretty easy for you to adapt to a pattern that works - for now. But from what we've seen here, if you see problems now, they'll only get worse, not better without some sort of coupler/repeater. -- Bobby G. > I find that once you have a marginal area where one phase doesn't reach > another, it's only a matter of time before that area spreads and others [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > -- > Bobby G. Thanks Bobby, I know you are right. I will contact Jeff once he is back. David snip>> I'm not sure what I would do at your stage. Obviously I didn't do >> what I am preaching now and have a nearly $300 power line signal >> analyzer to prove it! (-: I kept avoiding the circuit box solution [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > back. > David A wise choice! You will be well pleased with it. No X10 installation should be without it. > Thanks for the response Bruce. I had not heard of the XTB units. But in > my old house I had a SmartHome SignalLinc (no booster) in my dryer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > panel so that signals can pass more easily (the booster adds some form > of signal amplification). Is this correct and true also of Jeff's units? Yes. I've been so impressed by its performance that I wrote an article about it for Hometoys: http://www.hometoys.com/ezine/08.04/green/xtb.htm Since I installed the XTB-IIR (the coupler/repeater version) my X-10 stuff just works and that's really much greater praise than it sounds. Unfortunately, it sounds like you'll have to get an electrician to install it. That's easier than it sounds, because it basically means installing a new 240VAC outlet somewhere, hopefully near the circuit panel. It increase the power of the X-10 signal (according to the formula P=VA) nearly 25 times over the standard X-10 signal. So far, the only problem has been a chime module that "sings" softly whenever the XTB transmits, and that was solved by moving it further away from the XTB. > I have not checked yet to see if the garage interior light circuit and > the circuits having the controllers are on different sides of the > panel. If they turn out to be on the SAME side, what sort of improvement > might I expect from such a unit as Jeff's? > Thanks. > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > >> > >> Thanks > Thanks for the response Bruce. I had not heard of the XTB units. But in > my old house I had a SmartHome SignalLinc (no booster) in my dryer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > panel so that signals can pass more easily (the booster adds some form > of signal amplification). Is this correct and true also of Jeff's units? Yes. I've been so impressed by its performance that I wrote an article about it for Hometoys: http://www.hometoys.com/ezine/08.04/green/xtb.htm Since I installed the XTB-IIR (the coupler/repeater version) my X-10 stuff "just works" and that's really much greater praise than it sounds. Unfortunately, it seems like you'll have to get an electrician to install the XTB-IIR but that's easier than it sounds, because it basically means installing a new 240VAC outlet somewhere, hopefully near the circuit panel. It increases the power of the X-10 signal (according to the formula P=VA) nearly 25 times over the standard X-10 signal. So far, the only problem has been a chime module that "sings" softly whenever the XTB transmits, and that was solved by moving it further away from the XTB. > I have not checked yet to see if the garage interior light circuit and > the circuits having the controllers are on different sides of the > panel. If they turn out to be on the SAME side, what sort of improvement > might I expect from such a unit as Jeff's? Tremendous improvement. I was considering scrapping my significant X-10 investment because the signal problems became worse every year. I was about at wit's end when the XTB came along and I figure it's saved me 1,000's of $ and 100's of hours of deinstalling X-10 gear and installing new stuff. With the mandated switch to CFL's coming soon, I am afraid that the XTB is going to become mandatory for most X-10 installations. Fluorescent lights have become the number once source of X-10 "trouble on the line" for me. Last month, a shoplite that had shown no X-10 band noise for the first few years of its life began emitting noise at nearly 2 volts - strong enough to cause plenty of trouble. I've had to invest more heavily than I'd like in X-10 filters, but the filters allow me to use fluorescent bulbs without problem, and with the recent hikes in electricity rates, they'll pay for themselves in short order. Eventually, anything 110VAC that's got a light socket will be behind an X-10 filter. I've found that nearly identical runs of CFL's can have significantly different electrical characteristics. -- Bobby G. (Apologies for sending the first message "scarce half made up" and prematurely. My new keyboard's left <control key> sits just where the heel of my hand used to rest on the old one. Inadvertent pressing of the control key causes some pretty serious problems - time to pop the keycap!) > Thanks for the response Bruce. I had not heard of the XTB units. But in > my old house I had a SmartHome SignalLinc (no booster) in my dryer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > panel so that signals can pass more easily (the booster adds some form > of signal amplification). Is this correct and true also of Jeff's units? Yes. I've been so impressed by its performance that I wrote an article about it for Hometoys: http://www.hometoys.com/ezine/08.04/green/xtb.htm Since I installed the XTB-IIR (the coupler/repeater version) my X-10 stuff "just works" and that's really much greater praise than it sounds. You may need an electrician to install the XTB-IIR but that's easier than it sounds, because it basically means installing a new 240VAC outlet somewhere, hopefully near the circuit panel. You don't even need to find an "X-10 smart electrician" for the project. I found it challenging, but I was able to do it myself and I'm no great talent in the electrical deparment. The XTB increases the power of the X-10 signal (according to the formula P=VA) nearly 25 times over the standard X-10 signal. So far, the only problem has been a chime module that "sings" softly whenever the XTB transmits, and that was solved by moving it further away from the XTB. > I have not checked yet to see if the garage interior light circuit and > the circuits having the controllers are on different sides of the > panel. If they turn out to be on the SAME side, what sort of improvement > might I expect from such a unit as Jeff's? Tremendous improvement. I was considering scrapping my significant X-10 investment because the signal problems became worse every year. I was about at wit's end when the XTB came along and I figure it's saved me 1,000's of $ and 100's of hours of deinstalling X-10 gear and installing new stuff. The only reason why I waited long enough for the XTB to "rescue me" was that I couldn't decide which new HA protocol to switch to. I would have probably gone with <choke> Z-wave. But I wouldn't have gone over happily. With the mandated switch to CFL's coming soon, I am afraid that the XTB is going to become mandatory for most X-10 installations. Fluorescent lights have become the number one source of X-10 "trouble on the line" for a lot of people - especially me. Last month, a shoplite that had shown no X-10 band noise for the first few years of its life began emitting noise at nearly 2 volts - strong enough to cause plenty of trouble. Even the mighty XTB had trouble coping with such "loud" noise on the line at the end of long circuit branch and that load had to be filtered. I've had to invest more heavily than I'd like in X-10 filters, but the filters allow me to use fluorescent bulbs without problem, and with the recent huge hikes in electricity rates, they'll pay for themselves in short order. Eventually, anything 110VAC that's got a light socket will be behind an X-10 filter. I've found that nearly identical runs of CFL's can have significantly different electrical characteristics and God only knows what LEDs will do to X-10 (or other HA signals) when that technology matures. So it's filters everywhere, but it's a small price to pay to enjoy a break in electrical rates and be enviro-friendly at the same time. -- Bobby G. > "David White" <whitedavidp@fastmail.us> wrote in message > Yes. I've been so impressed by its performance that I wrote an article [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > it's filters everywhere, but it's a small price to pay to enjoy a break in > electrical rates and be enviro-friendly at the same time. Thanks for the responses, Robert. As I understand it, each alternating row of breakers (left/right) gets its power from alternating sides of the supplied power. So the first row gets its power from supply A while the second gets its power from supply B and the third from supply A, etc, etc. Is this correct? With the above assumed, I did some checking and I believe that the interior light circuit and the circuit on which the mini controller is installed come off two different supplies (A and B) and this would cause problems. I also found that the exterior light circuit was on the same supply at the mini controller. This would explain why it worked first time, every time. To confirm this, I moved the controller to a different part of the house where it appeared the power is supplied from the same source as the garage interior light circuit. In this configuration, the mechanism seems to work flawlessly. I would expect, however, that such a change would result in a degrading of operation on the exterior light circuit. But it does not appear to have that result. Perhaps it is due to the lack of fluorescent fixtures on the exterior light circuit (at least for now). I still need to check the circuits on which my CM11A and Radio Shack timer/controller are located but it seems I have a 50% chance of their being on the "wrong" side as well. So it appears that I might need a coupler/repeater. I have been reading and trying to understand Jeff's site. It is a bit much for me technically. Your article helps a little more but I still feel a bit lost. One thing for sure is that I would need an assembled unit from Jeff. I have no real electronic skills (I am a software guy and hardware escapes me). I basically understand the plug-in SignalLinc products as well as the hardwired ones like these <http://www.smarthome.com/4823.html> and <http://www.smarthome.com/2406h.html>. So can you can help me understand Jeff's products? (a) The XTB unit seems less than ideal for my purposes as it lacks a bridge between both power supply sources. It also seems like my controller MUST be plugged into the XTB (but I am not sure about this) for it to boost its output. If true, I'd need one per controller and that seems inefficient for my needs (I have three now and likely more in the future). (b) I am not sure but it seems like the XTB-IIR does NOT require that my controller be plugged into it directly (even though it appears to have a plug to support this). Is this correct? (c) Does the XTB-IIR need to be on its own set of dedicated breakers like the hardwired units from Smarthome? (d) It seems like Jeff wants the XTB-IIR to be connected to a 3 or 4 prong outlet rather than being directly wired to the panel. Since I do not plan to plug any controller into it, it would be more convenient to hardwire it inside the main panel (if the box will fit in there) like one would with the other hardwired units. Is this possible/supported? If so, what are the dimensions of the XTB-IIR? (e) The lack of UL and the need to sign a waiver is a point of concern. Has anyone checked how this might affect their home owner's insurance should a fire happen (even if not the fault of the XTB-IIR)? (f) How/why are Jeff's units better than this unit <http://www.smarthome.com/4820x.html> or this one <http://www.smarthome.com/4823.html> or this one <http://www.smarthome.com/4820ac.html>? Thanks for all your time and response. snip> > So it appears that I might need a coupler/repeater. I have been > reading and trying to understand Jeff's site. It is a bit much for me [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Thanks for all your time and response. David, The legs alternate vertically in the panel so a 220 volt circuit is made up of 2 breakers, one above the other with a bar connecting the handles: A-110 A leg >220volts B-110 B leg A-110 A leg B-110 B leg RE a & b: Correct on a. For b, you do not have to plug your controller into the XTB-IIR. It will operate as repeater for all signals it receives. It can, however, replace the TW523 and generate X10 signals from TTL input. RE c: You don't HAVE to use dedicated breakers but if there's room in your panel it's good practice to do so. RE d: The size is 4.5"x4.5"x2" and yes, you could put it in the panel and hardwire it if there is room. It generates no appreciable heat. RE e: Insurance policies vary so you need to check yours. Unless it could be proven that the XTB-IIR was the cause of the fire I don't see how a claim could be denied. RE f: I have tried ALL of those over the years. They boost to a maximum of 5 volts and don't handle dimming very well. The XTB-IIR boosts to 20volts and is, by far, superior to the ones you listed plus the Smarthome plug-in version and the other ACT model you didn't list - and that's all there are. Bottom line: Don't waste your money on any other X10 signal coupler, booster or repeater. Whoa there on the advice regarding panels. Are you a licensed electrician and expert in the electrical code? Has the gear been tested and certified as being safe for installation inside a breaker box? If not then why put the considerable value of your home at risk on such nonsense? Real bottom line? Give up on the X-10 crap, it's junk. > RE c: You don't HAVE to use dedicated breakers but if there's room in your > panel it's good practice to do so. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Bottom line: Don't waste your money on any other X10 signal coupler, > booster or repeater. Thanks to all. I am discussing this with my electrician as I am not into risk. But giving up on X-10 at this point is not a great option for me (and many more I am sure). Other than occasional glitches, it seems to work very well and the costs are pretty low. It is not like any of this stuff is life/death so the occasional glitch can be tolerated and, hopefully, patched. But I am out of space in my panel. So to do anything but a plug-in unit from Smarthome will require I get some duplex breakers. But that may be easier than the plug-in as my dryer has no room behind it. > Whoa there on the advice regarding panels. Are you a licensed > electrician and expert in the electrical code? [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> Bottom line: Don't waste your money on any other X10 signal coupler, >> booster or repeater. > Thanks to all. I am discussing this with my electrician as I am not into > risk. But giving up on X-10 at this point is not a great option for me > (and many more I am sure). Other than occasional glitches, it seems to > work very well and the costs are pretty low. It is not like any of this > stuff is life/death so the occasional glitch can be tolerated and, > hopefully, patched. Giving up wasn't a great option for me either. The wiring is 60 years old and I didn't want to have to fuss with it to change out switches. Had I bought Insteon instead of the XTB, I probably would have had to pull the switches twice because of their big upgrade a.k.a. recall over the dimming problem. > But I am out of space in my panel. So to do anything but a plug-in unit > from Smarthome will require I get some duplex breakers. But that may be > easier than the plug-in as my dryer has no room behind it. "Dual Skinnies" install quite easily. I had to swap out some single width breakers for duals, as I too was out of circuits. It should take a licensed electrician 5 minutes, tops. It took a little longer for me since the new breakers looked quite different from the old ones and hooked onto the power bus a little differently. I ended up added four new GFCI protected outlets and replaced single width breakers that had been tripped so many times that the white lettering had worn off. )-: Now we can use the toaster oven, the microwave and the electric griddle all at the same time, too, so there was a great SAF boost to getting the electrical upgrade. Another circuit powers the new outside CFL fixtures because the old circuits didn't bring a neutral to the switch. All of this work was inspired by the arrival of the XTB-IIR. From my experiences with the non-coupler XTB version, I realized that a high-powered repeater/coupler would eliminate most of my problems and it did. It's *so* nice not to have to remember that only the mini-controller in the bedroom can reach the hallway light, etc, etc. Bobby G. I have a passive phase coupler I purchased about 8-10 years ago and installed myself. It is a UL Listed device. My entire house is reachable as long as I'm not running any fans near the receivers. If I were starting a new system though, I wouldn't choose X10. > Whoa there on the advice regarding panels. Are you a licensed > electrician and expert in the electrical code? As near as I understand it, you don't need to be licensed to wire in your own house. You are probably required to get it inspected. Of course there is risk working in your box unless you get the electric company to pull the meter. > Has the gear been tested and certified as being safe for installation > inside a breaker box? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> Bottom line: Don't waste your money on any other X10 signal coupler, >> booster or repeater. > Whoa there on the advice regarding panels. Are you a licensed electrician > and expert in the electrical code? > > Has the gear been tested and certified as being safe for installation inside > a breaker box? The XTB-IIR should be connected to the breakers by a standard 220VAC outlet and wouldn't fit easily in the average breaker box. > If not then why put the considerable value of your home at risk on such > nonsense? Nonsense? I have a small inkling of the time and effort Jeff's put into the design and building of the device and his qualifications. That means a lot more to me that UL putting its very expensive alleged "stamp of approval" on something. I've got four UL listed devices that have failed in spectacular and predictable ways. One was a simple outlet "extender" that used a press-fit bus bar which any damn fool - except, apparently, UL Labs - could tell would work loose over time. When it worked loose enough, it blew out with impressive force when my wife plugged her hair dryer into it. UL approves soldering irons, hot melt glue guns and powerful crosscut paper shredders WITHOUT off switches. Today, my Global 75X paper shredder jammed and the motor began to smoke as I worked the AUTO/ON - BACKWARDS - FORWARD switch to no avail. After the smoke cleared, I rewired the unit to a powerstrip so I could kill it immediately if that happens again. I already rewired both the glue gun and the soldering iron, both potential sources of ignition, with line cord switches. As badly designed as they are, they are UL listed. (Ptooey!) So freaking what? When I beta tested the XTB, Jeff and I had many, many discussions about UL or ETL "listing" (it's only that, and not an "approval" BTW). Since I had worked for a law firm for 10 years, I really leaned on him to get a waiver from customers so that they acknowledge its lack of a UL listing. Two very important legal protections against unjustified lawsuits are "informed consent" and "full disclosure" and I believe that Jeff has very conscientiously addressed both, unlike some other small "manufacturers." He knew being upfront about the UL listing would cost him sales, but he also knew it was the right thing to do. Jeff has been designing gear like this for one of the nation's most prestigious research labs for over 30 years, IIRC. You need only look at the design, construction and assembly of the units to know that they aren't just things he knocked out overnight with no thought to safety. During the beta phase I explored as many possible failure modes as I could think of with Jeff, and I am certain that the unit will fail in the safe mode if it fails, and that it's fused against overloads so that any sort of surge damage can be repaired easily. I wish I had as much faith in the safety of my cars as I do in the XTBs. Detroit's way of handling things is diametrically opposed to Jeff's. They'll only go into full disclosure mode after the 100th person is killed in a roll-over accident caused by bad design and deniability is no longer a credible option. So when you label what's really more a labor of love than a money-making endeavor "nonsense" it makes me wonder how you define that word. Nonsense, in my dictionary, more aptly covers the utterings of someone who heaps scorn and derision on something they've never used or or even seen close-up. Especially when that "nonsense" device has saved people like me thousands of dollars in equipment costs and 100 of hours in time *not* upgrading to a more expensive HA protocol. >Real bottom line? Give up on the X-10 crap, it's junk. That's great advice from someone who hasn't even seen or used the XTB and wouldn't be underwriting (pun intended) the serious cost of the changeover. X-10 works just fine for me and for many others here. It works *especially* well for people like Bruce Robin and me who have added the XTB to their systems and who rely on powerful whole-house controllers like Stargate http://www.jdstechnologies.com/ Homevision http://www.csi3.com/homevis2.htm and Homeseer. I can control 256 devices with X-10. How many units can your *incredibly* overpriced Lutron Radio RA system use? IIRC, it's a very puny 32 loads. I also seem to recall the control options are outrageously limited. Can Radio RA shut down the water supply from 1000 miles away? I doubt it, but my X-10 system can. Do you have universal modules that can drive non-X-10 equipment via X-10 controllers? Do they only cost $20 each? How much does a simple time controller cost for Radio RA? Judging by the few prices I see published (not a good sign, IMHO because it means there are manufacturer price control in effect) what costs me $40 in X-10 gear costs RA users $1,280. People who are thinking of following your advice to abandon a true home automation protocol for one that basically controls just lights should check out these prices: http://www.electricsuppliesonline.com/raacresyen.html $32.00 --- Lutron RA-AD RadioRa Accessory Dimmer for Multi-Location Dimming $320.00 --- Lutron RA-REP-WH RadioRa Radio Frequency (RF) Signal Repeater $40.00 --- Lutron RA-VCTX-WH RadioRa Car Visor Control Transmitter $208.00 --- Lutron RAMC-MFE-WH RadioRa Multi Function Entry Master Control $1,280.00 --- Lutron RA-SBT-CHR RadioRa Chronos System Bridge and Timeclock (Provides a powerful, built-in astronomical timeclock that simulates daily routines with the "Away" mode, giving the appearance that someone is home.) OUCH!!!!! I'd say you spent a lot of money to insure the sort of reliability that you *could* have gotten with X-10 had you waited until the XTB came along before you switched. And before you say "who needs 256 unit control?" I can honestly say that I do. Today, I started programming my X-10 capable HomeVision controller so that when I press certain X-10 codes, the HV unit sends out IR commands to the various AV devices. This means when I exit a room, I can have HV turn off any devices or lights that were on and restore them to their previous state when I return. It also means I can Velcro a tiny $5 keychain remote to my PC keyboard to mute the stereo or TV with a single button push. Try something like that with Radio RA. With 256 addresses, I can do all sorts of things that would be impossible with a 32 load maximum controller. -- Bobby G. <stuff snipped> > Thanks for the responses, Robert. > > As I understand it, each alternating row of breakers (left/right) gets > its power from alternating sides of the supplied power. So the first row > gets its power from supply A while the second gets its power from supply > B and the third from supply A, etc, etc. Is this correct? In most US homes that's the case. The XTB-IIR is usually installed connected to a double pole breaker that can shut down both phases if either protected circuit overloads. > With the above assumed, I did some checking and I believe that the > interior light circuit and the circuit on which the mini controller is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > lack of fluorescent fixtures on the exterior light circuit (at least for > now). Ah, the Dance of The Dead Signal begins! (-: Seriously speaking, without coupling and amplification, these sorts of "works from here but not from there" issues only mushroom. Plug in a noisy CFL or a signal sucking UPS in a "critical" location and a lot of stuff can suddenly just stop working. > I still need to check the circuits on which my CM11A and Radio Shack > timer/controller are located but it seems I have a 50% chance of their > being on the "wrong" side as well. One of the "workarounds" I used was to install a number of mini-timers throughout the house on various branch circuits so that when we were away, the lights would come on around the house, not just the ones nearest the controller. That was actually one of the more effective workarounds because the timers were cheap ($18 each when RadioShack was closing out X-10 stuff) and they didn't interfere with each other. When we weren't on travel, I disabled the timers by placing them behind X-10 filters so they would maintain their timer settings but not be able to turn on any lights. A kludge, to be sure, but vastly superior to the multiple mechanical wheel timers we *had* been using. It's much nicer to let a centralized home controller do that sort of thing. The XTB is really useful for the CM11A because that device has one of the lowest voltage levels of all the X-10 transmitters. > So it appears that I might need a coupler/repeater. I have been reading > and trying to understand Jeff's site. It is a bit much for me > technically. Your article helps a little more but I still feel a bit > lost. )-: I tried hard to strip away the "too technical for beginners" stuff, but it appears I need to try again. I appreciate the feedback. It took me a while to spin up on the whole subject, but I am sure you'll get there. I'll have to give a thought to writing a more basic description of how it all works. For now, there's a good explanation here about couplers and phases: http://www.x10ideas.com/articles/displayx10article.asp?articleid=9&title=Com mon%20X-10%20Problems a.k.a. http://tinyurl.com/6rhry2 > One thing for sure is that I would need an assembled unit from > Jeff. I have no real electronic skills (I am a software guy and hardware > escapes me). The only soldering skills I have are bad ones <g> so I've bought my units from Jeff fully assembled and tested. There are few things in the world I feel as comfortable recommending as the XTB. That's because Jeff is incredi bly thorough and tests each unit he assembles and he stands behind his work 110%. The only complaints I've heard about it come from BK (that's not Burger King, BTW!) and he doesn't even OWN one. I've tried to convince Jeff to build an RF coupled XTB-IIRF that doesn't require installation at the panel, but he's declined because of all the issues involved getting FCC certification. Still, as a guy who put off going into the breaker panel for ten years, I believe there's a very big market for a coupler/repeater like the IIR that can be installed just by plugging in two units on different electrical phases. I estimate that there may be as many as 1 million X-10 users with signal problems that either can't or won't add a 240VAC outlet. For renters, the budget minded, electrophobes and others, modifying the circuit breaker panel just isn't in the cards. > I basically understand the plug-in SignalLinc products as well as the > hardwired ones like these <http://www.smarthome.com/4823.html> and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that seems inefficient for my needs (I have three now and likely more in > the future). That's correct. I went that route in the beginning, buying six(!) XTB units for all my "main" controllers. At that time, the XTB repeater/coupler was still in development so there wasn't much choice. Since I was faced with $1000's in switchover costs to leave X-10, it didn't seem like a exorbitant expenditure. I also thought it important to encourage Jeff to design more X-10 gear and buying his products seemed the simplest way to do that. When the IIR's predecessor was born, I bought that unit and finally, the IIR. The cost never bothered me much because I was certain they would always have a high resale value and the XTB's saved me from having to scrap my whole X-10 setup. > (b) I am not sure but it seems like the XTB-IIR does NOT require that my > controller be plugged into it directly (even though it appears to have a > plug to support this). Is this correct? Yes - quite correct. The IIR "listens" to the powerline and repeats and amplifies any X-10 powerline transmission it hears. It also has a jack for a controller like the TW523 (used by many OEM's to interface alarms, whole house controllers, pool controllers and other devices to the powerline). Since the best place to "inject" an X-10 signal is right near the breaker box, I have my HomeVision whole house controller (sort of like a CM11A on steroids - lots of steroids!) plugged into the digital outlet on the IIR. The IIR also has an amplified AC outlet which means that plugging in a mini-controller, CM11A or other X-10 transmitter into that outlet amplifies the signal, just like the simpler XTB. I have all my important controllers, my whole house RF transmitter and lots of ControlLinc Maxi's feeding into XTBs throughout the house. I don't *really* need the standalone XTB's anymore, but I believe that using them makes problems from noise and signal suckers far less likely. While I considered installing the IIR directly into the breaker box, I ended up following Jeff's advice and mounted a new 240VAC outlet for the IIR right near the circuit breaker panel. Since I have one of the first repeater/couplers in addition to the IIR, I thought that using plug and outlet would enable me to swap out the unit or deactivate it easily for testing more easily than a direct mount. Also, when it's time to move, I can unplug the IIR in seconds leaving only a 240VAC outlet behind. -- Bobby G. |
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