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Homeowner Forum / Home Automation / November 2004X10 vs. LonWorks for Home Automation ???
I ask this question as a newbie to Home Automation, but coming from a background of commercial building automation (I work for a major OEM in that area). In the commercial world, there's virtually no market penetration of X10-type powerline communications devices, almost everybody talks either LonWorks (or, to a lesser extent, a few other proprietary protocols like IMPACC) with a slight-but-growing penetration of wireless ethernet devices. The fact that there's no commercial market makes me wonder how "seriously" I should take X10 if I want to do my own home automation ? There's no disputing that X10 seems to "own" the home automation market. Or is there ? Is X10 the prevailing home automation standard because it's the best available technology - or because it's the cheapest and easiest given the skill level of the typical homeowner ? Or are there other better alternatives ? I see a handful of LonWorks devices out there, but nowhere near the variety that X10 has. Is there anything else ? - FM - There is also Crestron, and AMX. But both of those systems are hardwired, and not geared for the DIY crowd > I ask this question as a newbie to Home Automation, but coming from a > background of commercial building automation (I work for a major OEM in that [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - FM - > There's no disputing that X10 seems to "own" the home automation market. Or > is there ? Is X10 the prevailing home automation standard because it's the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Or are there other better alternatives ? I see a handful of LonWorks devices > out there, but nowhere near the variety that X10 has. Is there anything else LonWorks just never pursued the market. X10 sucks. LonWorks is great stuff but it's probably beyond the abilities of most retail customers to install, program and operate. Oh but I *wish* LonWorks would try the residential market. But as it stands the commercial market is probably much more cost effective. They can sell units at higher prices and don't have to stand up a support network for all the retail idiots that would call asking questions. I think that has more to do with it than anything else. -Bill Kearney > X10 sucks. I agree, and I still use it extensively because I don't know of any alternative as a low cost flexible control LAN with no pre-wiring. I wish that the companies involved would collaborate to create a protocol which was more reliable (with ack/nack) and less vulnerable to interference. Tony >> X10 sucks. > > I agree, and I still use it extensively because I don't know of any > alternative as a low cost flexible control LAN with no pre-wiring. I wish > that the companies involved would collaborate to create a protocol which > was more reliable (with ack/nack) and less vulnerable to interference. UPB ( http://www.pcslighting.com/UPBProducts.htm ) fits the bill (it acks the commands sent). I haven't tried it yet (next month) but it looks promising.  SignatureLinux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@comcast.net http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog > UPB ( http://www.pcslighting.com/UPBProducts.htm ) fits the bill (it > acks the commands sent). I haven't tried it yet (next month) but it > looks promising. Thanks for the pointer. I'll investigate whether there is (yet) any UPB controller which can be interfaced to HomeSeer. Tony >>> X10 sucks. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > acks the commands sent). I haven't tried it yet (next month) but it > looks promising. Expensive!! > "Neil Cherry" <njc@wolfgang.uucp> wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Expensive!! Yes but not much more expensive than better quality X10 (not X10 branded) products. Before we can call it a better solution we need to see it up and running. I'd alos hope that if it catches on that price would drop. Only the future will tell ... SignatureLinux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@comcast.net http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog >> "Neil Cherry" <njc@wolfgang.uucp> wrote in message >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >see it up and running. I'd alos hope that if it catches on that price >would drop. Only the future will tell ... Perhaps. But, as far back as their first press releases, PCS said UPB was dirt cheap to manufacture. Yet, they introduced it at a premium price. That's probably a guarantee that it will fail to get adequate market share. How many people use A10? If SmartHome's Insteon proves reliable (Color me dubious.), UPB will disappear, especially if Insteon is, as claimed, priced at X-10 levels and backwards compatible to X-10. (Their specs say they use 131.5kHz for PLC so I'm not sure how well they will be able to control X-10 devices or respond to X-10 commands.) >>> "Neil Cherry" <njc@wolfgang.uucp> wrote in message >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > to manufacture. Yet, they introduced it at a premium price. That's probably > a guarantee that it will fail to get adequate market share. That could be a real problem. I'm still going to play with UPB to see how well it works. After all we could end up with most of the very same issues of X10; phases, black holes or worse. Hopefully not reliability, not at these prices! I wonder about the 40V level and the interaction of home appliances. Will it damage anything else? > How many people use A10? I've only seen it in hotels, which is where it was meant for and I have it. :-) I'm not impressed with A10. > If SmartHome's Insteon proves reliable (Color me dubious.), UPB will > disappear, especially if Insteon is, as claimed, priced at X-10 levels and > backwards compatible to X-10. (Their specs say they use 131.5kHz for PLC so > I'm not sure how well they will be able to control X-10 devices or respond > to X-10 commands.) Maybe I should go fishing and find out more about Insteon also. I hope it has the 2 way communication. Having a nice closed loop system would solve a lot of X10's problems. That and switches that tell 'us' that someone manually changed it's state. As always the biggest problems with any new technology is that we need to learn it's quirks and weaknesses. SignatureLinux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@comcast.net http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog >Maybe I should go fishing and find out more about Insteon also. I hope >it has the 2 way communication. Having a nice closed loop system would >solve a lot of X10's problems. That and switches that tell 'us' that >someone manually changed it's state. Insteon is supposed to be two-way (although I think the feedback for RF is via PLC) but all I've seen so far are press releases and a skimpy specification document. While it sounds really great, everything else SmartHome has done really grates. ;) The 131.5kHz spec makes me think they are using a Philips FSK PLC modem chip which has been proven in Europe so it is possible but the prices I've seen on European modules are much higher than those bandied about in the press release. Of course, in volume and made in China they could more reasonable - the modules I've seen are SDK level with SDK type prices. The first Insteon modules are due 1Q 2005. Despite my skepticism, I would not invest big bucks in UPB or ZWave before seeing it. > LonWorks just never pursued the market. X10 sucks. LonWorks is great > stuff [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > -Bill Kearney Yes, this pretty much supports what I've been discovering after a week or so's research - Everybody seems to dislike X10 but use it because it's available. Searching on the web implies that there IS some residential LonWorks stuff out there, but when I dig deeper it usually turns out to be for the European or Asian/Pacific markets. Living in the Portland Oregon area, I'm unable to find a single local dealer or distributor that has any LonWorks product - or even as much as a simple demo kit - they could actually show me. Closest I've been able to find is mail-order from Engenuity in Chandler AZ http://www.automatedbuildings.com/releases/feb02/engenuity.htm . But I'm hesitant to do blind mail order, I'd want to see a real demo first. - FM - >Searching on the web implies that there IS some residential LonWorks stuff >out there, but when I dig deeper it usually turns out to be for the European [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >http://www.automatedbuildings.com/releases/feb02/engenuity.htm . But I'm >hesitant to do blind mail order, I'd want to see a real demo first. I've used Engenuity for mail order, seem to be alright. But I agree, Lonworks is not for the faint of heart (or short of cash) but you do get a rock solid system. I've got a 100 node system in my house, and it fully integrates lighting, climate, security etc. Regards David |
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