I posted this this in r.g and r.g.e and then wondered if any of you on
your side of the planet have done this or have experience with this, as
you seem to be ahead of the curve. The more I read, the more excited I
become about it. I'm particularly enthused about the long term and
persistent aspects of this.
>After reading Bill's posts about Rodale's compost work with leonardite
>dust and the essay by Rebecca Lines-Kelly that mentioned terra pretta,
>I started looking into the use of charcoal, crushed or dust, as a
>compost and soil amendment. Has anyone used charcoal dust or have any
>thoughts or results?
>
>http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/
>
>http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/background/charbenefits.htm
>
>Charlie
These FUs added some info..seems there is a shit-ton of info and study
being done. Benefits seem to go beyond soil fertility.
>There are some interesting articles on this site. It's a Canadian
>company working in conversion of biomass into energy.
>
>http://www.dynamotive.com/en/news/media.html
>
>Dora
------------
>Funny you should mention this... I was just reading news headlines at
>sciencedaily and found this:
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080410153658.htm
>
>I think I should read up on this a bit more and maybe try some in may little
>plot. Thanks for the links.
>Chas
Care
Charlie
Terryc - 11 Apr 2008 03:26 GMT
> I posted this this in r.g and r.g.e and then wondered if any of you on
> your side of the planet have done this or have experience with this, as
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>compost and soil amendment. Has anyone used charcoal dust or have any
>>thoughts or results?
Okay, without actually reading all the stuff, but getting annoyed with
the lack of pactical stuff compared to "buff my academic career BS", my
2c is;
Charcol is really slash and burn agriculture. Good for about 2 years
then it effects fades, which is why all these communities were
essentially nomadic.
There also seems to be a current fad for soaking charcol in liquid
fertiliser then burying it as a slow delivery tool, but this relies on
externaly procured fertilisers.
Now, Amazon Basin, El Dorado and a spanish explorer that every expert
swore was a kook making up stories as there was absolutely no way that
the rainforest was going to support the millions of natives that he said
it did. BTW, rainforest actually has an exceddingly poor soil if you
didn't know.
Then there was a TV doco about a sudden penchant for this soil from
built up along the Amazon for top dressing on Brazilliam gardens. When
examined, it turned out to be loaded with CHAR, not charcol.
Then someone put two and two together and worked out that this highly
fertile deposits were the built up soild deposits were the remains of
the garden beds of the native inhabitants of the Amazon Basin of the
time of the spanish explorer. Further, whe someone got off their arse
and walked around and mapped the area, then tested the capacity of the
soil, there was enough capacity to support the millions of people
claimed by that explorer.
The soil "deposits" were the raised garden beds, which had been made by
bulding up soil that was higher than the annual floods and the soil was
loaded with char particles, which was made it very fertile.
I notice that the first Terra-Pretta articles continues to show the
stupidity of the academics that swore El Dorado was kook land. Anyway..
Now, as I understand it, char is a stage before charcoal and so what I
want to know, is what is a good backyard method for producing char, not
charcol?
The only information I can find is about using other feedstocks such as
coal, but as I have large trees and not a coal mine in my backyard,
these are no help.
Has anyone here been a charcoal burner?
Thinking that I just need to interrupt the process earlier and grind the
wood down.
Loosecanon - 11 Apr 2008 05:57 GMT
>....Snip....
I concur with the idea that char or charcoal probably have no real effect at
all on nutrient supply and if any only a minor part. Charcoal is a good
substance to grab nasties hence why it is used in water filters but have to
be changed regularly too work correctly.
The idea that floodplains were extremely rich and that charcoal or char was
found would not be the reason for the fertility. A true floodplain is
enriched by flooding, nutrient and silt movement along a watercourse. Also
surrounding hills that are covered in trees will have a nutrient flow all of
their own. This is due to the mulching effect of leaves, weeds and grasses.
Also the areas are natural systems where birds, insects, microfauna and
animals add to nutrient buildup. Rains will carry this down to the flood
plains. Also water tables will be recharged with fresh water along the way.
Problem is most farms used the flood plains as their production area. They
have drained them and caused problems with erosion. Here in Australia
farmers were encouraged to clear the land before claiming it as their own.
The hills that were treed lost the soil they had built up and are now down
to bedrock or very rocky. Salinity is another big issue that has arisen.
The indigenous folk being hunters and gathers burnt vast tracks of land.
Char and charcoal would have been in the floodplains as well. This has only
encouraged plants that survive here to need fire to regenerate.
My thoughts are keep the ground covered by grasses, shrubs, trees and
mulches. Also incorporate animals, worms, birds and insects then your soil
health will be the best and improve with each year. Adding charcoal and or
char wouldn't be needed because the plants will be storing carbon.
Terryc - 13 Apr 2008 02:10 GMT
>>....Snip....
>
> I concur with the idea that char or charcoal probably have no real effect at
> all on nutrient supply and if any only a minor part. Charcoal is a good
> substance to grab nasties hence why it is used in water filters but have to
> be changed regularly too work correctly.
Nope, there is a distinction. Charcoal is basically just carbon with
minerals trapped in it, whereas Char isn't completely energy depleted
and thus has something to add overtime. AFAIUI, you can burn wood char
again, but not charcoal.
> The idea that floodplains were extremely rich and that charcoal or char was
> found would not be the reason for the fertility. A true floodplain is
> enriched by flooding, nutrient and silt movement along a watercourse.
The problem in the Amazon basin was that it is basically rainforest,
which is extremely good at nutrient scavenging, so much so that the
soils are relatively poor.
I think that there is also the factor that the area for supply of
nutrients, the Andes is comparatively very minor compared to the area of
the basin.
> Here in Australia farmers were encouraged to clear the
> land before claiming it as their own.
I think the word was "required" to clear and it was so much per year if
they wanted to keep it.
> The indigenous folk being hunters and gathers burnt vast tracks of land.
Umm, AFAIK, they didn't burn vast tracts, but rather small plots. Cooler
fires, less nutrient loss.
FarmI - 11 Apr 2008 07:20 GMT
<Charlie> wrote in message
>I posted this this in r.g and r.g.e and then wondered if any of you on
> your side of the planet have done this or have experience with this, as
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>plot. Thanks for the links.
>>Chas
Good Lord! Here I am having been using something called bio-char and never,
ever knew it. I just called it ashes.
Terre preta isn't a term that means anything to me and I thought that
charcoal was made under heaps of earth and that took several days of
specialist burning to produce.
But having said that, I do use the ash in the ash pans which come from
burnings wod in winter in our fires (both our heater and our slow combustion
stove (range)). I sieve the fine ash from the large black chunks and the
ash is used like lime and the black chunks (which are sort of a bit like
real charcoal) are used in the base of pot plants to keep the soil 'sweet'
and any I don't ned for pots gets thrown somewhere on a bed and eventually
mixed into the soil when it gets dug. I work in the theory that anything
that has once lived is recyclable back to the soil.
Can't say that I've ever noticed anything out of the ordinary about it, but
it also does no harm either.
John Savage - 03 Jul 2008 05:19 GMT
><Charlie> wrote in message
>>I posted this this in r.g and r.g.e and then wondered if any of you on
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>>
>>Charlie
>Good Lord! Here I am having been using something called bio-char and never,
>ever knew it. I just called it ashes.
There isn't much carbon remaining in ash.
>Terre preta isn't a term that means anything to me and I thought that
>charcoal was made under heaps of earth and that took several days of
>specialist burning to produce.
Indeed. There was a story on Landline (ABC tv) earlier in the year, I seem
to recall a figure of 30% improvement in the productivity of the fodder crop
it was tried on.
Then, week before last, in the Gardening (ABC) program Peter Cundall was
using a mixture of manure, crushed charcoal and something else when
planting out his onion seedlings. He said that the mix boosted the growth
of some other crop he'd tested it on, but had no effect on a third one.
(Exactly what these crops were, I now don't recall; maybe someone else
here does?)

Signature
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
terryc - 03 Jul 2008 05:58 GMT
> Then, week before last, in the Gardening (ABC) program Peter Cundall was
> using a mixture of manure, crushed charcoal and something else when
> planting out his onion seedlings. He said that the mix boosted the growth
> of some other crop he'd tested it on, but had no effect on a third one.
> (Exactly what these crops were, I now don't recall; maybe someone else
> here does?)
If it is charcoal, then the role is just as a holder for the
nutrients/minerals or whatever else was mixed into it before hand.
If it is char, aka not fully combusted, then there are some nutrients in
the materiral isself (as opposed to trace minerals, etc in charcoal).
I think Terra Pretta is some stuff created from coal that they are trying
to give a name to. my thoughts are that it is a way to turn rubbish coal
into a salable product.